1861 Springfield progress report. Far from "there", but there is hope.

Wow, quite an issue. !! Were they or not. Well a good thing for those guys to argue over. I love to dress up in wool, but it usually has a camo pattern and is green. :)
 
Minie balls have most of the weight forward so they shoot like round balls. That's why the originals had a slow twist.
Truth, much like modern shot-gun "rifled" slugs are. I wonder if that was ever a part of the original design, (purposely) or if it just happed to work out that way. ?
 
The bore on that thing is perfect. I was shooting charges in the 80-100 grain range, I've just finally resigned myself to see what I can do at 70 grains. But that's the bottom line, 70 grains or go home! :cuss:

I have got good accuracy, but the fly in the soup, the poop on the stoop, is that once in a while I get a flyer like two or three FEET out of the group. Therein lies the rub. But again, this last shooting session with the waxed .577's didn't do that. I got that one off the plate which was the first shot, then they started hitting home pretty good, even though it was only 50 yards. So I think, and hopefully I'm on the right track.

But feeling at home and warm and fuzzy in Grizz's backyard with a 45-70, I'm waking up to the fact that pushing a .58" slug with 70 grains ain't exactly chopped liver.

If indeed the twist is that fast, that might indicate that a longer, heavier slug will shoot best. That would be fine with me.
Well I’m with Jackrabbit, wondering about the boolits, voids, etc… a flyer a few inches out is one thing, feet or off the board entirely something else…

wrt longer, heavier bullets, you’re probably not topping 1300 fps and 600 grains/1.0” long bullets should stabilize perfectly with your twist. I bet you could get decent accuracy with 120 grain charges under such a Bullet if you can hold up your end. I don’t know how much your rifle weighs but I have shot 120 grains under a 520 grain .45 caliber bullet in a 12# Gibbs rifle and it is exciting…
Mr. Grizz doesn’t want that kind of attention either. Just a thought.
 
I don't disagree, the only fly in the ointment there is that I know my own castings are good. But, it wouldn't hurt to weigh them to be sure. I'm thinking that a .575" just does not work, perhaps due to jumping the rifling or failing to engage it. Even with the poor casting quality of the TOW bullets (I can/could actually see some voids in the bottom of the base, not the skirt, but deep in the cavity) I did not get a wild flyer. I'm pretty sure now that trying to get a .575" to work well in a .580"+ bore is not going to work. But the REAL is a tight fit...why do I get flyers with it? And when it behaves, it sure cuts the cleanest holes in the paper you've ever seen.

Here is where I'm at, at the moment. The cheap way out is the LEE 578-478-M bullet. Under 40 bucks. Or, the Accurate Molds bullet that you posted, the heavier of the two, along with a sizing die. The third choice would be the the Pritchet bullet, which would be the most expensive, considering the mold, the templates, and the bottom plug(s) mold.

I'm leaning towards the Accurate Molds bullet. The solid/flat base eliminates the whole skirt "thing". Although, modifying a base plug gives one a lot of possibilities. And if the Lee bullet did not work, then it goes from cheap to $$$ down the drain.

I don't know what the accuracy of the Pritchet system is, just that it's "more accurate" than the U.S. cartridge. But I like how the cartridge works. Perhaps I'd be better off going that route at a later date. To my mind, the Accurate Bullet seems to be the safest bet.

On powder charges, I'd be happy around 90 to 100, but I can live with 80 grains. And, 70 is my new bottom line, but yes at least 80 should be possible. I have shot a 600 grain bullet out of my "Zouave" in the past, "back in the day". Yes, that was RECOIL! My Armi-Sport weighs in at ten pounds, but I don't want to go over 100 grains.

????
 
Been reading this thread and guys, this isn't rocket science. For ANY kind of accuracy with a minie there's a couple very basic factors that must be observed. First, cast from pure lead. Second, bullet must be .001 under the ACTUAL, MEASURED bore size. Not what you think it is, not what the manufacturer says, not what somebody on Utoob says it was historically. Third, powder, lube and how the lube is applied all affect trajectory and accuracy. If you're filling the base, you just upset any efforts at keeping the weight of the bullets consistent. That does nothing for accuracy. Last, I have yet to find ANY Lee minie design that will shoot acceptably well, get a quality mold and learn how to cast minies. Casting minies- cast it hot, pour it fast. Bullets of odd weight often have internal voids that will create flyers. Powder- you don't need huge levels of powder. A top charge of about 70gr is about as good as it's going to get. Any more and you'll deform the skirt of the minie and will destroy accuracy.

But what would I know-
IMG_20221029_155140.jpg
 
Been reading this thread and guys, this isn't rocket science. For ANY kind of accuracy with a minie there's a couple very basic factors that must be observed. First, cast from pure lead. Second, bullet must be .001 under the ACTUAL, MEASURED bore size. Not what you think it is, not what the manufacturer says, not what somebody on Utoob says it was historically. Third, powder, lube and how the lube is applied all affect trajectory and accuracy. If you're filling the base, you just upset any efforts at keeping the weight of the bullets consistent. That does nothing for accuracy. Last, I have yet to find ANY Lee minie design that will shoot acceptably well, get a quality mold and learn how to cast minies. Casting minies- cast it hot, pour it fast. Bullets of odd weight often have internal voids that will create flyers. Powder- you don't need huge levels of powder. A top charge of about 70gr is about as good as it's going to get. Any more and you'll deform the skirt of the minie and will destroy accuracy.

But what would I know-
View attachment 1172536
In other words, for war minies are a fine bullet. For heavy charges and dangerous game, not so much. The Accurate bullet looks better and better. Still, you want to keep your GPP loaded and handy when you’re poking around in Grizz’ back yard.
 
My ArmiSport will hold minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards with a minie. It takes a little doing to get dialed in. It leaves a hole nine inches deep and four inches across in the soft sandy dirt of a pond bank at that range.
 
Please elaborate how a solid-base bullet will expand/hold into the deliberately
very shallow rifling of a barrel designed for a hollow-base Minie.

It doesn't have to expand. It's bore size. It definitely takes a short starter to get started. I had a mold for one for my .50 cal way back when.
 
Been reading this thread and guys, this isn't rocket science. For ANY kind of accuracy with a minie there's a couple very basic factors that must be observed. First, cast from pure lead. Second, bullet must be .001 under the ACTUAL, MEASURED bore size. Not what you think it is, not what the manufacturer says, not what somebody on Utoob says it was historically. Third, powder, lube and how the lube is applied all affect trajectory and accuracy. If you're filling the base, you just upset any efforts at keeping the weight of the bullets consistent. That does nothing for accuracy. Last, I have yet to find ANY Lee minie design that will shoot acceptably well, get a quality mold and learn how to cast minies. Casting minies- cast it hot, pour it fast. Bullets of odd weight often have internal voids that will create flyers. Powder- you don't need huge levels of powder. A top charge of about 70gr is about as good as it's going to get. Any more and you'll deform the skirt of the minie and will destroy accuracy.

But what would I know-
View attachment 1172536
About time you showed up! Was hoping you would. What you say confirms much of what I suspect, and I appreciate the hands-on experience and knowledge. Very thankful for everyone who has helped brain-storm. No not rocket science, but it is "science" and "art" for sure. !!! I realize I'm chasing a dream, making a min-yay rifle into a powerful, big game slug-gun. But hey I have to try. I truly love the rifle, but hate to resign it to a once-in-a-while paper puncher.

Dave I saw you mention on another forum that the Armi-Sports do have a reputation for not shooting well sometimes. Is there a known reason for that?

Well I'm not giving up yet, but as mentioned have resolved to drop my "bottom line" to 70 grains. It's unfortunate that the pool of knowledge with these rifles revolves almost exclusively around the service charge, or less, and the traditional bullets. Or unfortunate for me. But, it's been fun dive into the rabbit hole. !!

I think my casting skills are very good, but for sure I'll start weighing, and see what I might see.
 
Please elaborate how a solid-base bullet will expand/hold into the deliberately
very shallow rifling of a barrel designed for a hollow-base Minie.
I think that bullets will "bump up" to some extent, (called "bullet upset") and that is where being very close to bore diameter comes into play. I'm sure now that .575's just won't "bump up" enough in a .580" (possibly +) bore. NO DUH! I suspect the mini' does both. If only the skirt expanded, seems like it would go down the bore cock-eyed, which I would think would result in really terrible accuracy. But that...I don't actually know.
 
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My ArmiSport will hold minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards with a minie. It takes a little doing to get dialed in. It leaves a hole nine inches deep and four inches across in the soft sandy dirt of a pond bank at that range.
It seems that the mini rifles will shoot well out to long range, better than what the 100 yard grouping would suggest.
 
In other words, for war minies are a fine bullet. For heavy charges and dangerous game, not so much. The Accurate bullet looks better and better. Still, you want to keep your GPP loaded and handy when you’re poking around in Grizz’ back yard.
Truth. I think the Accurate bullet will most likely be my last dying gasp. The more I look into the Pritchet, I'm not seeing much if any superiority in accuracy. I just watched a "shoot off" between an Enfield using the Pritchet cartridge and bullet, and in fact using the larger bullet as it was first introduced, and a Springfield using the period correct U.S. cartridge with the min-yay/Burton bullet, and the Enfield did not out shoot the Springfield. The groups were quite equal I thought, and the Pritchet load threw two wild flyers that went completely off the target board.

When packing that big old long Springfield. all ten pounds of it, I actually carry a lighter side arm. Either my S&W AirLite or the Little Brat 1862. That's a big reason I want to make the best impression with the rifle, should Grizz try to kick me out of his back yard, or take me home for dinner. I only get one chance to make that impression, and so desire to make the biggest impression possible.
 
It seems that the mini rifles will shoot well out to long range, better than what the 100 yard grouping would suggest.

Well if it won't group at 100 it's certainly not going to group at 300. In a modern centerfire minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards is pretty bad. During the CW there were reports of sharpshooter kills with Enfields out to 600 yards or more.
 
Well if it won't group at 100 it's certainly not going to group at 300. In a modern centerfire minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards is pretty bad. During the CW there were reports of sharpshooter kills with Enfields out to 600 yards or more.
Yes, but the Sharpshooter might not mention the dozen misses it took to get that kill. !!!!
 
Good luck.....
(REALs never worked for me)

But the OP's employing such a one-shot projectile in a weapons system otherwise
specifically designed for relatively fast/repeated reloading -- in battlefield/combat
stress conditions and without cleaning -- all to make it suitable for dangerous game....

.
 
I tried REALS and Maxi Balls and a couple of others. The Maxi Ball worked best in My .50 Investarms Hawken until I discovered round balls.
 
Maybe it's already been discussed, and I missed it but some these rifle muskets really need some barrel bedding work to get any kind of consistency.
 
My .50 Investarms Hawken
The rifled musket is a wholly different animal (barrel & rifling-wise) than a traditional patched-ball set-up.
FWIW: I've owned/shot an original 1863 Colt Special Model (Springfield) for now 45 years, and the Pedersoli 1861 repro for the last 10 years. Both shot quite well with the Lyman thin-shirt old style Minnie ball, and both would easily stop a horse at any practical range with the standard military load of 60gr 3F.

I would never consider either single-shot/muzzle-loading rifle for "dangerous" game.
Not the design. Not the intent. Not in my wildest irresponsible dreams.
(that last from my wife) :ninja:

.
 
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In addition to Dave951's info on Minies, perhaps there is another factor at play here, in regards to the flyers.

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock when shot, whips in a sine wave manner, vibrating like a sideways 'S'. A node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. There may be several nodes identified as you increase your powder charge; where I had one fire lock with 3 nodes, @ 55-grains, 75-grains and 105-grains. To test this, you randomly shoot 3-shot groups at a bullseye for each charge, beginning with your starting load and say working up in 5-grain increments for 6 different charges. Then repeat with another set of 4 to 6 up to what you think may be near your max charge.

For best results, do not shoot all of 1 charge at once, but switch it up, randomly shoot 1 charge, then another higher, then another less, etc. - only 1 shot @ each - until you have the 3-shots for each charge on the 6 targets. By NOT shooting all of one charge at once, 'statistically' you have normalized the data by eliminating your bias and spreading any human-induced variation across the spread of the total of all of the shots; say like you could begin to shoot poorly towards the end - when tired - as that could adversely influence or bias the last group's results. Statistically this method also significantly increases the confidence you can place in the results.

Those shots with the tightest group denote the range around a node. To fine tune, then experiment with a set of 2-grain increments starting say 4-grains below an identified node. I do similar for my modern 1,000-yard rifle, but this also works for black powder as I've proven it many times, like that above for that 54" barreled musket that had the 3 nodes!

Nodes-Flyer.jpg

If your powder charge has the barrel MOVING when fired, that can be a source of flyers and depends on other factors such as heat in the barrel. Pay attention to when those flyers occur - are they purely random or only after already shooting a few shots? If that was a longrifle, with a pinned barrel, then I'd advise one to remove the barrel and change the pin holes to be slotted, especially out towards the muzzle where the most expansion from heat will occur. Perhaps the forward barrel bands on that martial arm are too tight? Also check the bedding.

Off-topic
- But I think you're running into a situation where you want the heavier charge, and maybe using a solid-base slug so as to not blow out the skirt, but heavier bullets needs a faster twist, and me thinks that perhaps the barrel twist on that arm is the limiting factor. Bullets shot from non-optimal twist barrels are known to be a source of random flyers.
 
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