1911 Antiquated...

[mcdonl]

I don't agree with the Harley reference.... unlike 1911's there are many attributes you may consider in motorcycles that could point to a design as being antiquated... not a bad thing but stuff like water cooled engines, etc...

But, when it comes to guns the same arguments are not applicable. Sure, you may be able to get more capacity out of other guns (Although not many hi-cap .45's that I know of....) but for the most part they all perform the same functions.

Shoot, the ammo we shoot is pretty much the same design and formula that we have always used since metallic cartridges were invented.

 

[Walkalong]

A 1911 makes a way better club then a Glock when you run out of ammo in your foxhole.

Darn tootin'.

No foxholes at the range where most folks tout their favorite "new" weapon.

The 1911 has been proven on the battlefield.

It is made by a bunch of companies who are selling all they can make, not to mention all the small semi-custom/custom makers.

Antiquated my butt. Poorly made by some companies, but definitely not antiquated.

 

[tipoc]

Anyone who says 1911s dont have reliability problems today, doesnt go to many action pistol matches.

You have to explain then why the 1911 dominates the top ranks of competitive pistol shooting; Bianchi Cup, Steel Challenge, etc. If you look at the top 10 shooters in any of these more than half will be working the old gun. It has a good deal to do with the shooters who choose the 1911 of course. They choose the old gun for it's reliability and shootability, also because they can keep it that way.

The 1911, being an older design, requires some work to keep in good shape. It is not a gun for everyone I don't think, especially now days when there are other choices. Some don't care to put much effort into their guns or pay much attention to them. To them another gun may be better.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

Anyone who says 1911s dont have reliability problems today, doesnt go to many action pistol matches.

There have been for decades several manufacturers of 1911s and it's clones. Right now there are around 20 internationally. There are a good many companies that make spare parts for the 1911. Some of these are counterfeiters who have specialized in making fake Colt factory mags. The old gun is also for good and bad, one of the most tinkered on guns in history. Everyone from top notch pistol smiths to your local oxy-contin fan loves the 1911 and believes they can get it to work just right.

With the odds stacked against it for the above reasons and others in general the gun still does well.

There is no gun as versatile and adaptable as the 1911. None.

Does the grip seem small? get a set of thicker stocks, install a long throw trigger, install an arched MSH and the problem is fixed. Does it seem big? thin stocks, short trigger, etc.

Wide body high capacity 1911s are widely available...Para-Ord, Wilson, Caspian and others make them and have been for years. The grips are no larger than the Berretta 92. It's interesting to me that some who believe mag capacity is low on 1911s don't know that there have been wide body guns for quite some time.

tipoc

 

[megatronrules]

Well I for one don't feel they are outdated,that's a subjective term. If it will fire a bullet and kill someone(what ALL guns area/were designed to do) then its not outdated is it?

I've owned several Colts,a norinco and springfield. Probably 10 altogether and only the springer gave me trouble. It turns out it had the extractor tunnel in the slide wasn't machined properly,springfield paid shipping both ways and I had the gun back made right in 10 days.

All of my other 1911's all ran 100% out of the box with their factory magazines,and they fed all brand of JHP's. One of my colts didn't like WWB JHP's but ate everyting else fine.

On the flip side I've had a Glock 19 2nd gen that wouldn't feed any jhp's period. This was with both 10 and 15rd factory Glock magazines. I've also seen a Sig 229 choke on fmj ammo and another Glock break one of its frame rails within 300 rounds out of the box new,go figure.

I'm not ragging on any of the other brands mentioned here,I'm just stating my experiences and in those experiences a quality mass produced 1911 will run fine out of the box right along side its modern brothers.

 

[akadave]

Its interesting that Action Pistol be mentioned. I have a highly tuned 9x23 1911 made by a well known smith on a Caspian frame and slide. The frame is interesting in that its high cap (20 rounds) but still slimmer than the normal high cap frames. The "stocks" if you can call them that are essentially inset deck tape (analagous) and it has 4x 20 round mags numbered to the gun. Interesting piece and a tack driver. It was originally a race gun. I can see where the smith filled the screw holes on the dust cover where the dot sight rails were.

 

[megatronrules]

Well I for one don't feel they are outdated,that's a subjective term. If it will fire a bullet and kill someone(what ALL guns area/were designed to do) then its not outdated is it?

I've owned several Colts,a norinco and springfield. Probably 10 altogether and only the springer gave me trouble. It turns out it had the extractor tunnel in the slide wasn't machined properly,springfield paid shipping both ways and I had the gun back made right in 10 days.

All of my other 1911's all ran 100% out of the box with their factory magazines,and they fed all brand of JHP's. One of my colts didn't like WWB JHP's but ate everyting else fine.

On the flip side I've had a Glock 19 2nd gen that wouldn't feed any jhp's period. This was with both 10 and 15rd factory Glock magazines. I've also seen a Sig 229 choke on fmj ammo and another Glock break one of its frame rails within 300 rounds out of the box new,go figure.

I'm not ragging on any of the other brands mentioned here,I'm just stating my experiences and in those experiences a quality mass produced 1911 will run fine out of the box right along side its modern brothers.

 

[kmbrman]

1911s or Poly pistols

This argument will never be settled about which design is modern and which is outdated. So far I've not seen any Poly guns ,as good as many are, with a high end maker claiming 1" groups at 25yds. as their guarantee. Some come close as in the FNP-45 pistols . But the high end 1911 brands promise this kind of accuracy. Not many people can take advantage of this precision except Pro shooters in most cases. The 1911 is old ,but still a good choice in a lot of situations calling for precision shooting by Swat teams and military sniping. My 17L Glock is a very accurate and fine performing Poly pistol and also is much cheaper than most 1911s.

 

[Old Ranger]

I read the first page here, then skipped to the third. Does the 1911A1 work? Is it reliable? Is it effective to defend yourself? Is it safe to carry? Not enough magazine capacity?

Let's see: World War I (Sargeant York "touched off" that last string of German soldiers charging his position with fixed bayonettes.) World War II, Korea, Viet Nam and everything after that until it was replaced by the M9 - - - - - not because they thought it wasn't any good anymore; but due to recoil, women in service and increased magazine capacity (I concede that one). Now, again, most special ops people have them back due to demand. I wonder why??? They are, of course, antiquated and no good anymore.

They were made for combat - - - to carry 'cocked and locked'. If all the parts are good, you can't accidentally set one off. If you push the muzzle, it won't fire. Manual safety, grip safety, half cock and muzzle.

The last thing any soldier wants in combat is an unreliable weapon. That's why a lot of guys tried (some did) trade off or use something else when the 'new' M16 was first introduced. They jammed at the worst possible time and got people killed.

I get kind of get tired of that Carbine replacing the .45 for officers nonsense. I was Army and Airborne. When I entered service the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine were at the end of their service but were still being issued. We still got .45s AND Carbines. So did medics and senior NCOs. Carbines were going to support troops and Artillery as well. The M14s were creeping in - - - the first one I saw, oddly enough, was being carried by a medic. I was with the 502nd and we were a little late getting ours. Then came Viet Nam and the the little plastic Tonka toys.

The .45 ACP is a life saver; and yes, it kills people. It's still around because it is probably the best combat sidearm ever devised; I doubt that it's days are anywhere near numbered.

 

[Jim Watson]

One problem with the 1911 is that it is too successful for its own good.
There are so many different makers answerable to no inspector or set of standards and thinking they know better (or cheaper) than John Browning, Colt, and the Army that you get some clunkers. And there is plenty of room for them to study cheaper. As Jan Stevenson said about 40 years ago, the gun is "a maze of little fink parts."

If there were a couple of dozen sets of Glock molds out from under Gaston's rule, do you think they would still be considered the height of reliability?

 

[kmbrman]

Everybody has a valid idea about each design as far as I can see. The 1911 isn't going away in any forseeable future, and Poly pistols keep getting better and more accurate as they progress and refine their designs. I think we'll still be debating this for years to come, but for myself I'll continue to like both formats.

 

[easyg]

A nice Glock or a nice 1911.....which one would you have pride about passing on to your kids or grandkids?

You do realize that they're just going to pawn them anyway, right?

The 1911 has been proven on the battlefield.

True.
But thanks to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, so has Beretta and Glock.

 

[easyg]

- not because they thought it wasn't any good anymore; but due to recoil, women in service, and increased magazine capacity (I concede that one).

Some folks have the strangest notions.

 

[Old Ranger]

OK. I don't know everything; I just think I do. Perhaps I shouldn't believe everything I think. You think?

Anyway; that sidearm is a life saver, and is (or was) a great weapon. I bought one of those Beretta M9 pistols: it's proven too; but it needed a trigger job. What a beast!!

 

[Lastmohecken]

IMHO, the better examples of the 1911 are still the best combat handguns in the world, but they are an expert's gun to certain extent, and maybe not the best choice for the average cop, or anyone for that matter that isn't willing to put much effort into mastering their handgun.

The average uneducated joe blow might be better off with a Glock.

 

[Weevil]

Anyone who says 1911s dont have reliability problems today, doesnt go to many action pistol matches.

Could it be that those 1911s have been built tight to improve accuracy???


So because you see competition built 1911s that aren't reliable you come to the brilliant conclusion that all 1911s are unreliable???


Since you base your conclusions on competition shooting then tell what are those uber-reliable pistols that are beating the 1911s and winning all the matches???

 

[Old Ranger]

I know a guy down at the club who shoots a '1911' that isn't - - - it's a .38 Super. It looks a lot like something from Star Wars and cost almost three grand.

When I think military 1911 it's more like Rock Island, Auto Ordinance or Springfield, although I think the only one of those made in the US is the AO model - - - but I'm not sure about that. Does Colt still make one?

When I was in service, the two I had were on frames built in WWII; they had odd duck names ; Singer (the sewing machine people) and Remington-Rand (the typewriter people) What's a typewriter?

 

[JoeSlomo]

WITHOUT starting a flame war and getting this thread closed, I would like to know what makes the 1911 antiquated?

Nothing.

 

[Baba Louie]

...I would like to know what makes the 1911 antiquated?

99 years ago it was One of the last great "horse pistols" issued for service. (maybe the 1917 Smith & Colt's were the last?) That fact alone might well mark it as an antique design, but who puts lanyard loops on magazines nowadays?

But it's antiquated like a Ruger SBH is ancient. Doesn't mean a thing as long as it goes bang and hits POA.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

@Baba Louie: People put lanyard loops on combat weapons because there are people out there who simply cannot afford to be without their sidearm for even the shortest time. Like soldiers and PMC's

 

[1911Tuner]

There are many antiquated designs that don't seem to know or care that they're outdated and at any sort of disadvantage. Along with the 1911, there's the Browning High Power, the '98 Mauser, the lever-action rifle, and the slide-action/pump shotgun. These arms have changed very little over the last century.

In the case of semiauto pistols...even most of the "Great/New" as opposed to the "Bad/Old" examples have the original designer's fingerprints all over them. Glocks are tilt barrel/locked breech/recoil operated pistols...just like the 1911. The Beretta 92 Series? Look at the Walther P-38 to see its roots. The M14/M1-A can be traced all the way back John Garand's brainchild. The Mini-14's grandfather was David (Carbine) Williams.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[CDW4ME]

I had a series 70 Commander that I couldn't stand due to the narrow beavertail. I later got a "Enhanced" model that solved the beavertail issue.
I had a Kimber CDP that I really liked, the two tone look.

Other than I could puke from seeing 1911's on the cover of guns magazines repeatedly...

I'll agree, unless you get a Kimber or other "Enhanced" version of the gun, the narrow beavertail is intolerable. Glocks and XD are comfortable to shoot "as is".

Getting night sights installed may be pricey on a 1911 that doesn't have them. I can get Meprolights installed for about $73 on a Glock, Trijicons were about $115 ? for the XD installed by SA.

You have either 7 + 1 capacity in the Officers size models I find concealable, or 8 + 1 in the Commander or Government models (which are difficult for me to conceal due to the height). I have a 10 + 1 capacity in my 30SF and it's overall height is shorter than a Officers. If the 30 seems too thick get a 38 and you have 8 + 1 in 45 GAP with the same frame as a Glock 19.

For easy concealed carry the model 27 with 9 + 1 rounds of 40 S&W is the ticket. The 27 offers power comparable to the 1911, and has greater capacity, less weight, plus a concealment advantage.

Is the 1911 outdated? Let's see, it's heavier, has less capacity, it's more expensive, and out of the box reliability is not a certain thing.

Maybe outdated isn't the appropriate term, more like outclassed.

As far as a pistol having "soul" the ones I carry do have a soul: mine. They make sure it remains within my body for the time being.

If you want an expensive pistol that holds fewer rounds, might work reliably out of the box, and weighs you down then go ahead and get that 1911, I've got one; but, it's not my 1st choice for carry.

If you want a 1st class defensive tool out of the box, get a Glock.

 

[joe_security]

You cant beat the "feel" of the 1911. It has to be the most ergonomic pistol of all time. A Glock feels like a 2by4 compared to the 1911.

 

[1911Tuner]

Maybe outdated isn't the appropriate term, more like outclassed.

The gun is outclassed only if the shooter is outclassed. If that's the case, nothing will do.

out of the box reliability is not a certain thing.

Can't argue with that, even though it's the fault of the magazine 98% of the time...but no need in arguing points that most 1911 owners discovered years ago.

Let's see, it's heavier, has less capacity,

Can't argue with the capacity thing, either...but capacity really only helps if you miss a lot. The weight can be a distinct advantage if you run dry and the fight goes hand-to-hand, however. The also "antiquated" lanyard loop makes for a wicked skull pommel, as does the original rear sight.

 

[The Bushmaster]

My mind tends to wander now and then (my age or something), but...How can you say that the Colt 1911 (and the design) is "antiquated" when it is over 100 years old and still going strong? When almost every manufacturer still has one or more in their new inventory?

I need that explained to me.