Why are popular striker-fired pistols safe?

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The SA/DA moniker ...
For clarity, the term/abbreviation regarding semi-auto pistols is DA/SA.

The guns start in DA and subsequent shots are SA. They don't start as SA guns and subsequent shots are in DA. However, I will admit, you could do this with a DA revolver, though those are simply known as DA revolvers, not DA/SA revolvers.
 
For clarity, the term/abbreviation regarding semi-auto pistols is DA/SA.

The guns start in DA and subsequent shots are SA. They don't start as SA guns and subsequent shots are in DA. However, I will admit, you could do this with a DA revolver, though those are simply known as DA revolvers, not DA/SA revolvers.

I agreed with your classification but the rest of the sentence you quoted was about revolves and was talking about the origins of the term Single Action and Double Action.
 
I really don’t see the big deal people make this out to be. If you don’t like Striker Fire handguns, there are other options out there.
If you like a manual safety on a Striker Fire handgun, they make them too.
Some people can’t run with scissors, and some people can, but then there are those that just aren’t comfortable running with sharp objects. It’s up to you to decide what’s best for you. For me? I like running with a sharp pair of scissors. ;)
 
My biggest safety concern is during holstering. It’s not always easy to see if there might be something in the holster that could interfere with the trigger. A piece of clothing can also get wedged in the trigger guard during holstering. With an exposed hammer revolver, you can put your thumb under the hammer during holstering. With a grip safety, you can release the safety by holstering with your thumb on the back of the slide. Keep your thumb under the thumb safety to make sure it’s engaged during holstering.

In any case, Murphy is always close by.

I've often thought one the cool features of the Walther PPS is that it has a striker indicator that pops up proud at the rear of the slide before it trips the striker. One could put their thumb over the back of the slide as they holster. If they feel anything pushing back, they know they are in the danger zone and to stop pushing down.

I've often worried about this happening, but upon testing it, it's actually pretty tough to do. I had to thread my shirt tail through the guard of my glock and push it down more firmly than I ever would without inspecting what was causing the hang up before I tripped the trigger.

Still, it's a real concern. I'll give you that.
 
I really don’t see the big deal people make this out to be. If you don’t like Striker Fire handguns, there are other options out there.
If you like a manual safety on a Striker Fire handgun, they make them too.
Some people can’t run with scissors, and some people can, but then there are those that just aren’t comfortable running with sharp objects. It’s up to you to decide what’s best for you. For me? I like running with a sharp pair of scissors. ;)

Some people like light trigger striker fired guns and running with scissors.

mkqZUup.jpg
 
I really don’t see the big deal people make this out to be. If you don’t like Striker Fire handguns, there are other options out there.
If you like a manual safety on a Striker Fire handgun, they make them too.
Some people can’t run with scissors, and some people can, but then there are those that just aren’t comfortable running with sharp objects. It’s up to you to decide what’s best for you. For me? I like running with a sharp pair of scissors. ;)
Yes, but you realize you are running around with a sharp pair of scissors, and accept the risk.

I think the point of the thread is many think, since they can't see a hammer with their striker fired pistol, it is safer than a "cocked and locked" single action auto that certainly looks scary with the cocked hammer. They've also been told these are double action pistols and are just as safe as a hammer fired Traditional Double Action (TDA) auto.

Striker fired guns are not unsafe, but for folks to not realize they give up a margin of safety offered by both guns with manual safeties and those with visible hammers is probably what is at issue with this thread.
 
I've often thought one the cool features of the Walther PPS is that it has a striker indicator that pops up proud at the rear of the slide before it trips the striker. One could put their thumb over the back of the slide as they holster. If they feel anything pushing back, they know they are in the danger zone and to stop pushing down.

I've often worried about this happening, but upon testing it, it's actually pretty tough to do. I had to thread my shirt tail through the guard of my glock and push it down more firmly than I ever would without inspecting what was causing the hang up before I tripped the trigger.

Still, it's a real concern. I'll give you that.
Glock Striker Control Device (SCD), often called "The Gadget", from Tau Development Group

https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com/products/striker-control-device
 
mcb said:
I don't try to classify a Glock/M&P/XD etc as single or double action. The SA/DA moniker comes from revolvers and still sort of makes sense in hammer fired semi-autos but in striker fired guns it does not work that well IMHO. A Glock's the striker is partial "cocked" and so its sort of like a double action, but not, since you have no double strike capability. An XD has a long double action like trigger pull but the striker is fully cocked and many after market trigger jobs on XDs remove nearly all the pre-travel and all of the over travel making the trigger pull more like a single action than a double action. I think trying to wedge a striker fire gun into the SA or DA pigeon holes is pointless. A striker fired gun is a striker fired gun and thus has a unique operation and trigger pull separate from both single and double action hammer fired weapons.

In fact, most (but not all) striker-fired guns are NOT double-action. The slide must be partially moved (to partially charge the striker spring) on most of them before the trigger will even work.

If you have a misfire with a Glock there is NO second-strike capability; the slide must be moved some distance before the trigger will even work again. There are exceptions, including several Walther models, which will act with true DA functionality. Most of what are called DA guns are, in fact, closer to single action, and NOT double action..

The term I've seen that best describes the Glock-style trigger is "modified" double-action, but a few other guns like the XD, the S&W's etc., the newer FN guns, are "modified single-action" -- as they seem like double action, but aren't -- as none of these gun have true "double-action" functionality.
 
In fact, most (but not all) striker-fired guns are NOT double-action. The slide must be partially moved (to partially charge the striker spring) on most of them before the trigger will even work.

If you have a misfire with a Glock there is NO second-strike capability; the slide must be moved some distance before the trigger will even work again. There are exceptions, including several Walther models, which will act with true DA functionality. Most of what are called DA guns are, in fact, closer to single action, and NOT double action..

The term I've seen that best describes the Glock-style trigger is "modified" double-action, but a few other guns like the XD, the S&W's etc., the newer FN guns, are "modified single-action" -- as they seem like double action, but aren't -- as none of these gun have true "double-action" functionality.
Well, I am certainly glad you clarified that! :confused:
 
IMO the Glock concept is BS hype. Glocks are a bad solution in search of a problem. There is no reason for not having a manual thumb safety on it like on so many other striker pistols, e.g. Ruger SR9. For righties the thumb safety is smoothly and easily deactivated during the draw from the holster with no speed penalty whatsoever. For lefties the same is true if a pistol with ambidextrous safety is chosen. Personally I believe a 1911 in Condition 1 is as safe as any other current pistol type, moreso than most.

More people get injured by losing gunfights because of a neglected manual safety than without one because of a ND.

Manual safeties take dedicated and continuous training, especially if you only shoot occasionally or you shoot multiple platforms.

The firing line - ain't 3 sec./3 AM/ threat mitigation.




GR
 
More people get injured by losing gunfights because of a neglected manual safety than without one because of a ND.
Do you have a source for that information?

Massad Ayoob has generally reported more lives saved by safeties rather than lost.

Manual safeties take training, especially if you only shoot occasionally or you shoot multiple platforms.
I agree guns with manual safeties require training to ensure they are engaged or disengaged properly to ensure safe operation.

Likewise, a gun with no safety requires training to ensure you don't shoot something when you don't want to shoot something.

As far as training goes, it's a wash.
 
Do you have a source for that information?

Massad Ayoob has generally reported more lives saved by safeties rather than lost.


I agree guns with manual safeties require training to ensure they are engaged or disengaged properly to ensure safe operation.

Likewise, a gun with no safety requires training to ensure you don't shoot something when you don't want to shoot something.

As far as training goes, it's a wash.

It may be a wash at the range or carry, but not in 3 sec/3 AM threat mitigation.

Unless you are highly trained, you will pull/point/squeeze to stop the threat.

Few things in everyday life comes with a safety.




GR
 
It may be a wash at the range or carry, but not in 3 sec/3 AM threat mitigation.

Unless you are highly trained, you will pull/point/squeeze to stop the threat.

Few things in everyday life comes with a safety.
You'll probably unconsciously trigger check too.

Having a manual safety or visible DA hammer gives some safety advantage over a striker fired gun to ensure you don't shoot your kid getting a snack at 3AM, thinking it was a bad guy invading your home.

Hey, I'm not telling folks they have to have a manual safety or a DA/SA gun, I'm just pointing out there is no perfect firearm. There are plusses and minuses to all guns. Everybody gets to choose what they want. However, as far as providing accurate information to those looking to make that choice, we owe it to our fellow forum members to be honest and accurate about the pros and cons of different options.
 
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I really don’t see the big deal people make this out to be. If you don’t like Striker Fire handguns, there are other options out there.
If you like a manual safety on a Striker Fire handgun, they make them too.
Some people can’t run with scissors, and some people can, but then there are those that just aren’t comfortable running with sharp objects. It’s up to you to decide what’s best for you. For me? I like running with a sharp pair of scissors. ;)

Like the majority of debates on gun forums, it really just comes down to this...

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I bought both of my M&P pistols with thumb safeties on purpose. I've been around guns with safeties my entire shooting life and I'm just more comfortable with them, and engaging/disengaging them is second nature at this point. The one exception being DA/SA revolvers but the DA pull is heavy and long enough I'm comfortable with them. Just one guy's opinion.
 
On the range, there is a big advantage to a striker fired gun. No safety to mess with and a consistent trigger pull. They are easy to shoot, there is no denying that.

If you're in an environment, like on the range, where each time you pull the gun out of the holster you're pulling the trigger, that's a big advantage - nothing to impeded the pulling of the trigger, and a trigger that is easy to pull. Shooting the gun is easy.

The downside to striker fired guns is also that they are easy to shoot. If you can expect most of your gun handling to result in a desire for the gun to not fire, which is probably the case with any gun owner that isn't primarily a competition shooter, having a gun that may be a little more difficult to get to fire may be an advantage.
 
In fact, most (but not all) striker-fired guns are NOT double-action. The slide must be partially moved (to partially charge the striker spring) on most of them before the trigger will even work.

If you have a misfire with a Glock there is NO second-strike capability; the slide must be moved some distance before the trigger will even work again. There are exceptions, including several Walther models, which will act with true DA functionality. Most of what are called DA guns are, in fact, closer to single action, and NOT double action..

The term I've seen that best describes the Glock-style trigger is "modified" double-action, but a few other guns like the XD, the S&W's etc., the newer FN guns, are "modified single-action" -- as they seem like double action, but aren't -- as none of these gun have true "double-action" functionality.

:cool: I must be typing/writing poorly today. It seems we are in agreement and you basically re-wrote several of my points?

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that we need to call a striker fired trigger a "modified" anything. Just call it what it is. A Glock trigger is a Glock trigger, an XD trigger is an XD trigger, etc. Substitute any other brand/model in for Glock/XD. There is no double or single action to it since there is no hammer to single action or double action. It is a striker fired handgun with its own brand/model specific feel and function.
 
I don’t trust manual safety’s. I have 3 instances I can remember where I found the manual safety disengaged on my 1911’s and my buckmark when working. I will not carry my 1911’s without a thumbreak holster where the strap blocks the hammer, though I prefer strap retention on all holsters.

I also agree with the point and shoot philosophy without having to disengage a safety. Just ask my hunting friends or the people I shoot trap and action pistol with how many times they’ve laughed at me when I pull up to shoot without taking the safety off. If a stupid duck can make me forget my chances of remembering when I’m getting mugged are not great. I’ve been shooting for 25 years and if I haven’t gotten over it yet I probably never will. Don’t have a problem remembering to put them on at least!
 
mcb said:
:cool: I must be typing/writing poorly today. It seems we are in agreement and you basically re-wrote several of my points?

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that we need to call a striker fired trigger a "modified" anything. Just call it what it is. A Glock trigger is a Glock trigger, an XD trigger is an XD trigger, etc. Substitute any other brand/model in for Glock/XD. There is no double or single action to it since there is no hammer to single action or double action. It is a striker fired handgun with its own brand/model specific feel and function.

I think we disagree widely than your comments above indicate. You didn't make any clarifying points the first time thru... And your solution (i.e., alternative) isn't really a solution.

By saying, "Call it a Glock trigger," etc. you aren't simplifying communication,-- you making things worse -- because a lot of the folks here (and someone you may be talking or messaging with) don't know how the various actions in different gun brands work. And they are different, to some extent. Some Walther striker-fired actions behave just like a DA/SA hammer-fired gun. Just calling an action by a brand name CONVEYS nothing to folks who haven't done a lot of investigation or had all of the guns mentioned -- but they THINK they understand you.

There are some DAO striker-fried guns, i.e., true DA guns. I had one some years ago -- a CZ-100, which I hated!): Some striker-fired gun models, like the Walthers have the ability to function just like a DA/SA hammer-fired gun, where you can start from a discharged striker, or use the slide to partially tension the striker, etc. Glock calls their action a SAFE ACTION, but some folks also call them double-action. Different manufacturers just SIMPLIFY things when they advertise. The ATF called the XD line SINGLE ACTION, but apparently later changed the classification to DA.

But explaining that most striker-fired guns aren't DOUBLE ACTION is a valid statement, as they don NOT have double-action triggers (i.e., double-action funtionality). saying that other striker-fired guns are SINGLE ACTION (or a "modified" single action) does tell you they're different from other striker-fired guns. In the case of a striker-fired SA gun, you might decide you want a frame-mounted safety, and find that you can't find one, unless you buy a Luger.. A number of the latest striker-fired guns work the same way, with just different amounts of pre-tensioning of the striker spring -- They are all, in a SENSE, have Glock striker actions, but some of them DO have frame-mounted safeties. So if someone is worried about using a striker-fired gun because it doesn't have a safety, they have options.
 
I think we disagree widely than your comments above indicate. You didn't make any clarifying points the first time thru... And your solution (i.e., alternative) isn't really a solution.

By saying, "Call it a Glock trigger," etc. you aren't simplifying communication,-- you making things worse -- because a lot of the folks here (and someone you may be talking or messaging with) don't know how the various actions in different gun brands work. And they are different, to some extent. Some Walther striker-fired actions behave just like a DA/SA hammer-fired gun. Just calling an action by a brand name CONVEYS nothing to folks who haven't done a lot of investigation or had all of the guns mentioned -- but they THINK they understand you.

There are some DAO striker-fried guns, i.e., true DA guns. I had one some years ago -- a CZ-100, which I hated!): Some striker-fired gun models, like the Walthers have the ability to function just like a DA/SA hammer-fired gun, where you can start from a discharged striker, or use the slide to partially tension the striker, etc. Glock calls their action a SAFE ACTION, but some folks also call them double-action. Different manufacturers just SIMPLIFY things when they advertise. The ATF called the XD line SINGLE ACTION, but apparently later changed the classification to DA.

But explaining that most striker-fired guns aren't DOUBLE ACTION is a valid statement, as they don NOT have double-action triggers (i.e., double-action funtionality). saying that other striker-fired guns are SINGLE ACTION (or a "modified" single action) does tell you they're different from other striker-fired guns. In the case of a striker-fired SA gun, you might decide you want a frame-mounted safety, and find that you can't find one, unless you buy a Luger.. A number of the latest striker-fired guns work the same way, with just different amounts of pre-tensioning of the striker spring -- They are all, in a SENSE, have Glock striker actions, but some of them DO have frame-mounted safeties. So if someone is worried about using a striker-fired gun because it doesn't have a safety, they have options.

Seems like allot of rambling when I can discribe how any particular striker fired gun functions in significant less words without using the terms double action our single action. IMHO, trying to shoehorn a striker fired system into the traditional double action or single action definition with a bunch of qualifiers creates as much unnecessary problems as it simplified explanations.

Striker fired guns are what they are. I believe a shooter should be able to learn it's functional principals as they are rather than obfuscate them behind definitions for older tech.
 
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You'll probably unconsciously trigger check too.

Having a manual safety or visible DA hammer gives some safety advantage over a striker fired gun to ensure you don't shoot your kid getting a snack at 3AM, thinking it was a bad guy invading your home.

Then you shouldn't even have the responsibility of a firearm.

It took a lot of training, that still continues, to not squeeze on a safetied trigger when I go to a SIG P938 or 1911.

Shooting your own kid is a target acquisition problem. Why would you put your finger on the trigger - if you weren't prepared to destroy the target?

Safeties - are for loose carry and carelessness - not for immediate action - unless you are currently trained specifically for it.




GR
 
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There are a lot of things you have to remember through drills when learning to draw a pistol from a holster and ready it for firing at an assailant. For example, when during the drawing and pointing process the trigger finger should be outside the trigger guard and when it should be inside on the trigger guard on the trigger. I put removing the thumb safety in that category. When I was taught how to draw and bring to defensive action a 1911, dropping the safety was an integral part of the process. I wouldn’t neglect to drop the safety any more than I would put my finger inside the trigger guard while pulling the pistol from the holster. “It is all of a piece,” as they say.
 
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mcb said:
:cool: I must be typing/writing poorly today. It seems we are in agreement and you basically re-wrote several of my points?

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that we need to call a striker fired trigger a "modified" anything. Just call it what it is. A Glock trigger is a Glock trigger, an XD trigger is an XD trigger, etc. Substitute any other brand/model in for Glock/XD. There is no double or single action to it since there is no hammer to single action or double action. It is a striker fired handgun with its own brand/model specific feel and function.

You didn't make any clarifying points the first time thru... But I think we disagree more than your comments above indicate. I think you've simplified things that aren't simple. And your solution (i.e., alternative) isn't really a solution. By saying, "Call it a Glock trigger," etc. you aren't making things clearer. Why? Because a lot of the folks participating here don't know how the various actions made by different gun-makers work and how they differ. And some of them do differ greatly!

Some Walther striker-fired actions behave just like a DA/SA hammer-fired gun, for example. No frame-mounted safety, but that arguably isn't needed if you decock before you holster. Calling an action type by a brand name CONVEYS nothing to the folks who haven't done a lot of investigation or had all of the guns mentioned -- but they may THINK they understand you. (I have a striker-fired XDm which is single action with a grip safety. I have a striker-fired SR9c which is neither DA nor SA, because the striker-spring is partially charged by slide action, but it is striker fired, and it comes with a frame-mounted safety. I have several Glocks, and several FNS models; The FNS models can be had with frame-mounted safeties, but mine aren't so equipped. I also have a S&W M&P Pro which seems to be SA, available with or without a frame-mounted safety, Mine don't have the safety. There are also some DAO striker-fried guns ( i.e., true DA guns); I had one some years ago -- a CZ-100, which I hated!): I also have a CZ P10C. Calling those two guns, both striker-fired, a CZ striker is simply misleading.

Some striker-fired gun models, like the Walthers have the ability to operate just like a DA/SA hammer-fired gun -- you can start from a discharged striker, or use the slide to partially tension the striker when you chamber the first round. If the round doesn't fire, you can pull the trigger and try it again -- and you can't do that with most striker-fired guns. Glock calls their action a SAFE ACTION, but some of the other guns that operate in exactly the same way call their actions DOUBLE ACTION. What would YOU call them? I think the ATF originally called the XD line SINGLE ACTION, but apparently later changed the classification to DA -- I believe IDPA and USPSA now let the XD guns compete with all of the other double-action guns, which includes Glocks.

Explaining that most striker-fired guns aren't DOUBLE ACTION is a valid explanation, as these guns do NOT have double-action triggers -- pulling the trigger when the striker is discharged will not charge the striker spring and release it unless the slide has been moved first, but coming up with a simple name for that functionality isn't easy. Saying that other striker-fired guns are SINGLE ACTION (or a "modified" single action) does tell you they're different from other striker-fired guns. In the case of a striker-fired SA gun, you might decide you want a frame-mounted safety, and find that you can't find one, unless you buy a Luger.. So if someone is worried about using a striker-fired gun because it doesn't have a safety, they have options.

My first striker-fired gun was a Luger (P-08), and it had a frame-mounted safety. How does it functionally differ from an FNS-40 with frame-mounted safety?
 
go israeli and stop worrying about this.

the only safety is the one between your ears.

luck,

murf
 
More people get injured by losing gunfights because of a neglected manual safety than without one because of a ND.

Manual safeties take dedicated and continuous training, especially if you only shoot occasionally or you shoot multiple platforms.

The firing line - ain't 3 sec./3 AM/ threat mitigation.

GR

"We have an inveterate dislike of the profusion of safety devices with which all automatic pistols are regularly equipped. We bclievoe them to be the cause of more accidents than anything else. There are too many instances on record of men being shot by accident either because tho safety-catch was in tho firing position when it ought not to have been or because it was in safe position when that was the last thing to be desired. It is better, we think, to make the pistol permanently “ un-safe “ and then to device such methods of handling it that there will be no accidents. One of the essentials of the instruction courses which follow is that tho pistols used shall have their side safety-catches permanently pinned down in the firing or “ unsafe “ position." -- from Shooting to Live

Safeties earned inveterate dislike from Fairbairn and Sykes, and the dislike was promulgated widely due to their tremendous influence. However, let's consider the two modes of failure mentioned:

1st - the safety was unintentionally off. It is easy enough to forsee ND's happening because of a neglected safety. While we may be determined within ourselves to prevent this, if you're the boss of 1200 officers, someone is going to screw it up.

2nd - the safety was on when the gun was needed to fire. That would be a bad situation and I think there's a number of examples of video evidence of just this happening. Still, I would posit two things: 1st, I can't imagine a cowboy drawing his single action revolver and not being considerate of the need to cock the hammer. He'd rather have to be trained not to cock it should he ever be given a double-action. It seems unreasonable to think a person can't be trained in the need to cock or manually clear a safety. 2nd, Fairbairn and Sykes actually recommended condition 3 carry after disabling the safeties. While I believe they would have preferred DA/SA autos or modern striker-style actions, none existed in their day. They chose condition 3 carry over a double-action revolver because they obviously believed the training to rack the slide when unholstering and then to eject the magazine and rack the slide to clear the gun and then re-insert the magazine was more easily accomplished than training to use a double-action trigger (revolver), and to perform fast revolver reloads.

These guys were not stupid. They accumulated more experience than almost any other individuals in the 20th century, and their conclusions have been repeated again and again. They prioritized the speed of reloads. They understood that high round counts were the norm. They didn't have high-capacity double-stack magazines available to them in their day, but they did write, "Throughout this book we have done our best to emphasise the vital need for extreme rapidity of fire. For ourselves, we can accomplish this...most easily with an automatic. The more closely our own pistols resemble machine-guns the better we like it."

I'll repeat that they emphasized the rapidity and volume of fire, and that's why they totally dismissed the single-action revolver, which would have met their preference for a trigger that is easy to shoot with. The difficulty for recruits to learn a double-action revolver trigger, and their lower volume of fire resulted in the overwhelming preference for the automatic.

They wrote in their 1942 book, "To attain the first requirement [stopping power] we should choose a cartridge that represents what we consider a safe middle-course, i.e. with a bullet of reasonably large calibre [greater than .32] and weight, driven at a very high velocity. As regards the second requirement... we have a preference for firing in “ bursts “ of two or more shots. We think that lack of stopping power inherent in the cartridge is compensated for in some degree by the added shock of two or more shots in very rapid succession.... Obviously, this belief of ours implies the necessity for a large volume of fire, quite apart from the desirability on other grounds of having as many rounds as possible at one's disposal without having to reload."

So what do we have today? "Intermediate cartridges" like the 9mm and .40 S&W (and in rifles the 5.56), high-capacity magazines, and high rates of fire. Triggers that are easy to learn, and no manual safety levers to forget and cause an ND. The lack of a safety to remember before firing was mentioned by them, but their alternate manual of arms (condition 3) suggests that was the least of their priorities.

We often hear people debating "how many rounds are fired in self defense incidents," with no clear answer except that most people are skeptical that they often take multiple high-capacity mag dumps. But Fairbairn and Sykes weren't writing for self-defenders. They were writing primarily from a law enforcement background. And if video evidence is indicative, it seems that multiple high-capacity mag dumps are common in law enforcement today. I regularly see officers reloading in video of shootouts, and reported round counts in incidents are often over 100. Examples that come to mind immediately are the shootout with the armed robber on the city bus where the officer's body cam captures him emptying both a shotgun and his duty auto and then most of the second magazine. Another one is the Vegas officer shooting through his own windshield and reloading and firing a second magazine.

If the FBI's frequently cited report that over 80 percent of officer's shots miss the target, it seems reasonable to have and to shoot 15 or 20 rounds or more. The DoD concluded at some point that the side who fires the most rounds tends to prevail, and that was part of their justification for the M-16.

Having written as much, I will also mention that I have some skepticism whether this doctrine is relevant to self-defense for non-antagonists. The popularity of guns like the Ruger LCP and J-frame vs. concealed-carry submachine guns suggests other people also see the needs of the self-defender who doesn't go looking for trouble as different, but others will carry high-capacity plus spares and that's fine with me. I think we can see how prevention of ND's and ease of use are things that apply to anyone.
 
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