1911 Antiquated...

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The gun is outclassed only if the shooter is outclassed. If that's the case, nothing will do.

The shooter outclassed? :scrutiny:

I can spend $1,000 for a 1911 that holds 8 +1 rounds, may work reliably.

For under $600 I can get a Glock 27 / 23 with night sights, have either 9 + 1 or 13 + 1 and IME it will work 100% right out of the box.

1911 got outclassed out of the box.

As to whether those extra rounds are ever needed, at least they are there.

For a CCW tool (that's what the gun is) I (obviously) prefer the Glock.

Nothing wrong with a reliable 1911, but I see not reason to chose a tool (1911) that's inferior to my other choices (Glocks or XDsc). :D
 
The shooter outclassed?

Yeah. It can happen. There are people who can shoot distinguished expert on the range, and fall apart when the game becomes serious. Carrying (name your preferred piece) doesn't mean that you're armed any more than having a driver's license makes you a contender at the Brickyard.

As to that...the '98 Mauser and the '03 Springfield is outclassed by the AK47 and the M16...but if a man armed with the bolt rifle is a good shot and he's intimately aquainted with his weapon...and he trains his sights on you...you're in a world of ...er...sheepdip...clear out to 400 yards or more.

Far too much emphasis is placed on the equipment these days. It's not the gun that wins. It's the man who wins. His gun is incidental. The plain truth of the matter is that the average citizen is about as well served with a 5-shot J-frame .38 Special revolver as with a "Manstomper" or a Wundernine...about 99% of the time.

For a CCW tool (that's what the gun is) I (obviously) prefer the Glock.

As is your preference. We carry what we're comfortable with...because that's what inspires confidence. Personally, I can't shoot a Glock for sour owl spit...and I've tried...so the Glock isn't for me. Good, solid pistols that do well for most people in most circumstances. I just can't get my hand to wrap around one to save me from torment.

Note that my usual carry gun is 3-inch Model 13, and my nightstand gun is a 4-inch Model 10...neither of which is stoked with fire-breathing ammunition. I carry a 1911 only occasionally, depending on where I plan to go on a particular outing. Around the house here, I've even been known to stuff a single-action revolver in the front of my belt to walk the grounds.
 
"Out of the box reliability"???


What knid of damn fool is gonna trust their life to a brand new out of the box gun?


I dunno about you but I always put a few hundred rounds through ANY new pistol before I trust it as a carry weapon.



Unless you're a newb and it's your first and only gun why would you carry a gun that hasn't been broken in and tested so you can get a feel for it???
 
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1. After thousands of dollars worth of quality gunsmithing work by American Handgunner Club 100 gunsmiths, with every part of the gun tuned or adjusted for maximum reliability, 1911s, in my experience, will still jam, FTF or FTE, never in practice and always during a match .

Theirs you problem took a 1911 and had it messed with. They were not made to be race guns. They were made as a Military Combat pistol Not a game gun.
I have never saw of felt the need to mess with my Colts. They are reliable and SD accurate right from box . Shooting full power loads . Not some cream puff load with a lite recoil spring .
 
Sure the 1911 is an old design, 100 years old. But it has performed very well for 100 years, the cartridge is still popular and the gun still performs its designed task as well as anything on the market. Old design does not equate to poor design or bad design. I think they still use the old aerofoil technology to make planes fly, since 1903.

So you complain about only having 7 or 8 rounds? Here is an idea. Learn to shoot already. Missing 17 times because you suck is not a firearm problem, when you are down to random chance for a hit probability and demand 17 rounds you really might just want to hire a body guard and stop worrying about carrying a gun. You are a danger to bystanders more than a toughguy.

It's heavy? Go to the gym once and a while buttercup. Not having the strength to carry a gun means you need to stay home already and just sit by the computer looking at one on the table.

It's an old design, obsolete and not needed? Really? Trojan is still making the same design of rubber and it still works. M2HB has been flattening villiagers for 90 years and we love it. Some idiot at Picatinney Arsenal is still trying to make a plastic Browning with a smaller but equal 50 cal round and still failing. Why? He is fixing a non-exisitant problem so nobody cares.

They are not realiable? Really? I have one at home that has fired 12,850rounds with one stoppage and it is documented. I doubt 99% of the internet experts have even seen 12K rounds in one place EVER. I have another that has been in competitive use for twenty years and had one barrel replaced.

There are more modern designs. Really? Have you looked at the Glock, it is slightly different but still the same as every semi-auto pistol ever built. The difference is that it is cheap and plastic. Cheap stamped metal and plastic guns have been around since WWII. The double stack magazine has as well. 9mm parabellum has been around since before WWI. Fixed sights since the gun was invented. Hammer forged barrels for decades as well. Polygon rifling has been in German guns for quite a while. DA only autos, or as they call it, "Safe action", mushy DAO with lousy feel, no as uncommon as you might think.

While materials have improved over the last 100 years and we can make many parts from plastic, carbon fiber, aluminum or some other space aged metal or material, very little has changed in design or function. Ballistics has not improved either, bullet technology has made some advances. But making a bullet that is shaped in a way that impacts the feeding as designed is not a real improvement.

A Glock might be different, hold more ammo that was designed 100 years ago, cheap or lighter to carry but it is far from new and innovative. Glock is a thirty year old design as well.

When the caseless ammunition, limitless feeding, electromagnetic rail gun arrives then you have something new.
 
I'm 70 and carry my Grandfathers Commercial 1911 (not 1911 A1). It has been used by my Grandfather and me in defense. It has never let either one of us down over all these years. Mr. Browning did good!
 
Thank you lonegunman; you said it all - - - better than I could.

Sometimes I read stuff about space gun bullets and other stuff and chuckle to myself. Patrick Henry McGurty, alias William Bonny, alias Billy the Kid - - - used a round butt .32 and Black Powder cartridges. I guess nobody told him he was undergunned or the one he carried was antiquated and inadequate.:scrutiny:
 
Before the emotions run any higher...let's just agree that both pistols are solid performers. Most of the reliability horror stories pertaining to 1911s are magazine related. With so many on the market...and so many hundreds of thousands of magazines sold every year, it's bound to be a factor. If both guns are shot well, either one will do. If they're not...neither one will do. Fair enough?

One of the deadliest gunmen to ever suck air and eat ham and eggs at an all-night diner was FBI agent D.A. "Jelly" Bryce. Bryce killed more men than any three of us hate...men who were actively trying to kill him. His preferred sidearm was the Smith & Wesson .44 Special Hand Ejector and the .357Magnum...both large, heavy N-frame revolvers. This, in spite of the fact that the 13-shot Browning High Power was readily available to him on demand.

It's not the gun that carries the day. It's the man. His willingness to transform from a good fella into a mankiller in a split second is what will bring him home alive...not a 15-round magazine stuffed full of
zombie stompers.

Another plain, flat truth is that few of us really have a genuine need to carry a gun. We carry because we can...and because it comforts us...and because we simply prefer to be armed because it's better to have it and not need it than vice-versa. We want to carry one, and that's good enough. I'm happy to see that more people are starting to take their security seriously.

But a real need? The few people who I've known that had/have a defined need to carry a gun most often carry two when they're away from home...and they've usually got a hideout or two stashed around the place. They don't go to the toilet without their pistol. I knew of one who installed a hook in his shower to hang a gun on...and he wasn't at all paranoid. Men like that live on the edge. Most of us don't. We carry a gun for that one-in-a-million chance that we'll have need of it on a given day in a given place. Insurance. Nothing more.

If we know for a fact...or even suspect strongly...that the place we're about to enter will result in having to shoot for blood...99.9% of us won't go there. I know that I won't go there unless I have to rescue a member of my family...and if that's the case, I'm going to let a shotgun do the honors.
 
I knew I would step on toes with my comments.

Some people get emotional about the 1911. It's made of steel, chambered for the 45 acp, has been around.

I'll address a couple of comments.

When I say out of the box reliability I mean it works with various ammunition out of the box. I DO NOT mean I would simply load and carry it out of the box. We all know some 1911's will not feed certain HP ammunition or they may require throating. Any pistol I carry will have fired "plenty" of rounds of the ammunition I'll carry in it before it's used for self protection. My point was Glocks have the advantage in inherent feeding reliability.

I do go to the gym 2 or 3 days a week and a 18 mile bike (bicycle) ride is fun too. However, that doesn't mean I want to carry a pistol that weighs as much unloaded as another does with a full magazine.

Capacity: I did mention the Glock 38 which is 8 + 1 in my first reply. I also listed the 10 + 1 Glock 30. I should have included the excellent XD45 compact with a 10 + 1 capacity. All three of these fine pistols offer either the same capacity or +2 over a typical 1911. I never implied the extra bullets were needed due to inaccuracy on the part of the shooter. I never said they were essential. No need to ridicule someone whose magazine carries more rounds than yours as being inaccurate. The Browning HP holds 13 rounds, does that mean the folks who chose to carry it are going to spray & pray? My favorite carry pistol is a 9 + 1 Glock 27; that's one round above the 1911. However, if the pistol held 13, I would load 13. Want to load up the 1911 with "only" 5 rounds? Attempting to discredit someone because their magazine holds more ammunition is ridiculous.

1911 Tuner is right. I did shoot expert on the range both years I was a LE officer, with a Glock 45. Also, either pistol will work fine for SD. As he said, most people won't need to ever defend themself with a gun, and I hope I never need the seatbelt or fire extinguisher either.

The Glock and the XD have a plastic frame. So what. If the grip feels good and the pistol is durable what's it matter? No need to debate whether the 1911 or the Glock are durable, they both are.

The new Remington 1911 sums up what I'm talking about. It's got a dovetailed front sight and everything else is old school 1911; you won't get night sights, has a narrow beavertail, slick front strap. If the pistol sells for $600 and if we assume reliability with HP ammunition you will likely have to spend over $100 more for night sights. Some people can tolerate the narrow beavertail, but I can't; there is another expense, and those typically have to be fitted by a gunsmith. It's debateable whether the slick front strap needs fixing; you could just pull a piece of bicycle tube over it to add grip. I use the bicycle tube on Glocks, but not the XD (the XD has a grip safety).

Now I spent $600 for the basic 1911 pistol, added night sights for another $120 (estimate), and the beavertail plus installation cost $100 (estimate). We now have a $800 pistol made of steel, with a soul:rolleyes:

Like I said before, I can get a Glock 23 with night sights for $600. I can spend the $200 I saved on a case of ammunition (I bought a 500 round case of Federal 180 JHP for $200). I now have a bunch of ammo for practice and / or SD and have not spent any more money than the price of a basic 1911. I said the 1911 was outclassed, let me correct, I should have said overpriced.

My plastic frame Glock (or XD) will protect me just as well as the steel 1911, be easier to conceal, lighter to carry, last just as long, and I'll have those extra rounds available IF they are ever needed (of course they won't). :D
 
CD...the term "Out of Box Reliability" keeps coming up. Over the last 50 years, I've seen very few reliability issues with the 1911 platform that weren't directly attributable to the magazine or bad ammunition...and not all that many of those, even. I've got several USGI pistols ranging in birthdates from 1913 to 1945 that can't tell the difference between ball and hollowpoint and even lead SWC ammunition. I've got a pair of Colt "Billboard" 91A1 pistols that have seen nearly 375,000 rounds combined...about evenly split, and the number of malfunctions can be counted on my fingers...and most of those were due to my funky reloads and my home cast SWC bullets. Both guns are operating on many of their original parts, and one of the pair gave up its very first malfunction...ever...about a year ago. Note that I've done nothing special to either one, other than proper extractor set-up when they were replaced at the 75,000 round mark...and using good magazines...of which I have 72 that do range duty, and are used regularly in bothg guns. (No. They're not WilsonMcCormickCobra Double Throwdown Tactical Super-Doopers.)

Shooters tend to scream long and loud about the ones that give trouble, while the vast majority that don't are never mentioned. I've found the 1911 to be extremely reliable under all sorts of conditions...and I'm not at all anal retentive over keeping mine squeaky clean and dripping with oil. I clean my beaters about every 500 rounds...if I happen to think about it and I don't have anything to do at the moment.

Finally...I've seen a few Glocks that puked, too, and for various reasons ranging from bad magazines and ammunition to filth to just somethin' wrong with the gun. I know one guy who swore off Glocks because neither the three that he owned over the course of 10years met his reliability expectations. It happens. Does that make me feel that all Glocks are junk? Of course not. Glocks are good, solid pistols with an excellent reputation. If that weren't true, they'd have never gained the popularity nor the proliferation that they currently enjoy. The same applies to the 1911, the Smith Model 10, and the Winchester Model 94.
 
Well, the 1911 is 100 years old.

The M98 Mauser is even older and hasn't really been improved upon for bolt action rifle design.

I love my 1911s but admit that I prefer a hi-cap 9mm DA auto for carry.

The 1911 remains the ideal military sidearm. Simple, reliable, and powerful.

Antiquated? Probably. But that doesn't make it useless.

I bought this one new in early 1973 and carried it for many years. It has "seen the elephant" with me several times and I would not hesitate to rely upon it again.


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Whack. Whack. Whack, Whack. And the beating of a dead horse continues. Someone should call the Humane Society.:rolleyes:
 
Various internet sources have confirmed the following to me at one time or the other over the years to be "antiquated" and "outclassed":

Pump action shotguns
Lever action shotguns, rifles, and pistols
Pump action rifles
Break action shotguns, rifles, and pistols
Bolt action rifles and pistols
Revolvers of all makes and models
1911
Ma Deuce
Any fully/semi automatic rifle manufactured before the AR-15/M-16/M4
Black powder handguns and rifles

While some are outclassed and antiquated more than others, still, it looks like most of what the world is using has been outclassed by Glock once again!
 
CDW4ME said:
My point was Glocks have the advantage in inherent feeding reliability.


Yeah because they made the angle of the feed ramp more shallow and use looser chambers.

This leaves more of the case exposed and lets the case expand more, this makes them more susceptible to case failures the infamous Glock "Kabooms" we hear so much about.



Nothing new and innovative there, guys have been grinding down feed ramps and opening up their chambers on 1911s to improve feeding with HPs and blowing out cases in the process for a long, long time.



Sacrificing a measure of safety to improve feeding wasn't a brilliant new idea invented by Glock. Although they were the first major manufacturer to put their customers at risk by doing it.
 
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Correction to my previous comment about bicycle tube, I would not put a piece of bicycle tube around the grip of a 1911 for the same reason I don't have one on the XD: the grip safety. Cheapest option would be some rubber grips that cover the front strap for the 1911.

I had 4 different Kimbers, all purchased new: CDP (the one with a Officers frame and Commander length slide), Ultra Carry, a polymer frame (can't remenber the exact name), and a SWAT replica. Only the CDP was reliable using the magazines supplied with the pistol.

I had a Colt Defender (purchased new) that wasn't reliable either.

My Enhanced Officers model I purchased new in the early - mid 1990's was reliable and I kept it, although I have not shot it in years. This is more of a collectors piece than a carry piece for me.

These are all "top end" 1911 pistols and only 2 out of 6 were reliable. I'm not making reliability statements based on one or two guns, rather personal experience with 6 different (pricey) models.

I probably should have kept that Kimber CDP, but I had already decided my preference in carry pistols was Glock.

The CDP I had was a reliable, nice looking 1911; it had night sights and a really good trigger. I'm no less or no better protected by the Glock 27 or XD45 compact than when I carried the CDP.

Shoot what you like, don't let emotion over materials or "heritage" cloud logic and don't belittle others for stating obvious advantages like capacity (whether it's needed or not).

The things I find advantageous about the Glock or XD like the unneeded extra rounds and lighter weight may not be important to everyone.

If I thought I was better protected by a 1911, or prefered a 1911, I could carry one easy enough (my Officers doesn't have night sights). If I really felt the urge to pack a 1911 I could get another CDP with night sights, two tone look and comfy beavertail. Instead I think I'll just carry my "soulless" OD (baby poo) Glock. :)
 
Many of the criticisms made here are valid. When I bought my first handgun many years ago I chose a Colt Government Model. As it came out of the box it was, quite disappointingly, a piece of junk. With factory FMJ ammunition, every other round stovepiped. The trigger was terrible.

Gunsmiths charged me hundreds of dollars to tune the trigger and enlarge the ejection port. Then the safety simply broke off. Ten years later, the Colt-factory replacement safety broke off again. I noted that the fracture was rough and grainy - the heat treatment of the steel was defective. The gun eventually became a patchwork quilt with a number of Parkerized-finish military parts added.

It works now, but it took way too long and cost way too much to get there. Perhaps the most remarkable thing is that I actually kept it, and kept trying to make it function properly for so long. The 1911's reputation for reliability is undeserved.
 
I think John Moses Browning understood ergonomics better than does Gaston Glock. Glock makes good stuff for guys with bit Teutonic hands, but then, there is the rest of the world to consider, which Herr Glock did not. As for reliability, I used to own problematic examples of BOTH the 1911 and Glock. I have also owned both that were 100% malfunction-free.

If a weapon functions reliably, and is accurate enough for the task at hand, it is neither antiquated nor obsolete. A design can reach a state of maturity, and then still remain relevant.

Having said that, I use SIG P229 pistols for serious purposes; police duty and personal-time carry, with revolvers in a backup role. (The SIGs have either a factory "short" trigger, or custom-contoured, slimmed-down triggers, for my non-Teutonic hands.) When the day comes that "peace officer" is removed from my list of daily activities, I may revert to revolvers for virtually all purposes. I will decide that when the time comes. Are revolvers antiquated enough for y'all? :)

Do I still have a use for the 1911? Well, my one remaining 1911, a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special, has mostly been hibernating in the safe since 2002, but I recently took delivery of a 10-8 rear sight with a .156" rear notch, which does seem to better suit my eyes. Next, I must decide whether to buy a rear sight tool, or let a local 'smith do the swap. My chief will not let me carry a 1911 in my duty holster again, but 1911s are still authorized for personal-time carry, and back-up purposes. I can be scary accurate, relatively speaking, with a 1911 from an improvised rest, and have been thinking of keeping a 1911 in a "war bag" that would be deployed in a nightmare scenario. The 1911 is still a superb battle pistol. :)
 
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First off when you say 1911 what are you talking about?

One made in 1911? One made in 1944? One made in 1975? One in 1988? Now?

How about manufacturers?

Kimber? Colt? Springfield? RRA? RIA? Armscor? Ithica? Remington? Remington-Rand? Singer? AMT? Valtro? STI? Wilson? Les Baer?

How about how it is made?

Full length one pice guide rod? Two pice guide rod? GI plug and rod? Beavertail? GI gripsafety? Ducktail? Speed bump on the GS? No speed bump? Barrel bushing finger tight? Wrench tight? Cone barrel? Ramped barrel? Traditional barrel? GI hammer? Round hole commander hammer? Oval hole hammer? Super light hamer? Arched, flat, or wedge shaped mainspring housing? Checked, chainlink, Cobraskinned or plain MSH? Add on magwell? GI thumbsafety? Extended safety? Ambi safety? Staked front sight? Dovetail front sight? GI rear sight? Novak, Bomar, or Heinie rear sight cut?

Now let us contrast that with the Glock. Since 1986 they have had 4 generations. If you average it out one change every 6 years. Now in between these changes they tweek the little parts inside the gun. (Check out a new G22 mag sometime. See what number is on the follower. The last guns my PD bought had an 8 on them. In less than 20 years they have changed the followers 8 times.)

Do you think in 2086 Glock will be selling guns that are exactly the same as they are now? Of course not but the basic design will be more or less the same. They will be polymer frame, with steel rail inserts, striker fired, modified Browning delayed blowback guns. They may have no iron sights because battery technology and red dot sights may be so advanced then there is no need for them. There may be DNA readers in the palm areas that know it is you.

Will a Glock be antiquated then? Of course not. Unless of course we have Star Trek phasers in stores. So why should a 1911 be antiquated now?

Let's be honest we have taken firearms pretty much to their limits now. About the only innovations we will have is in materials. And even them I am not impressed with the ploymer innovation. I can't help but notice polymer mags are thinker than mags made of metal for the same caliber. Which makes the grip thicker. Why do you think HK made mags of metal on their polymer guns where size is critical (think USP compact and USP45)?

Honestly all guns are antiquated in design. There is nothing new to see. Guns 9mm and up still operate on Browning's designs in regards to blow back. Smith and wesson is making revolvers, with small changes, like they did in 1899. Smokeless powder dates back to 1880. The last blackpowder guns not destined for cowboy games rolled off the lines in 1920.

All of the criticisms of the 1911 can all be refuted based on the numerous choices when it comes to 1911s or there are plenty of new designs with the same "problems." Too heavy? Yeah they make Al framed guns. Not enough bullets? Yeah funny how Justin Moon has made a living off of small capacity single stack guns.

Hell we might as well be arguing over golf clubs being antiquted. All anyone does they is hit a small white ball into a hole a couple hundred yards away. I think Tiger could still beat me using 99 year old clubs. I think his wife could beat him with 99 year old clubs too.
 
Antiquated? Is the 1963 Corvette, or the 1965 Mustang antiquated? Plenty of people still take big dangerous game with a bow and arrow!Maybe old, but I prefer the term "Classic" over "antiquanted".

I've carried one or another 1911 professionally for 17 years. All are box stock Colt, Springfield, and Kimber. Absolutely reliable and will fire anything. Those who've experienced otherwise I cannot speak for.

I passed up the Hi-Power, HK P7, HK USP40, and now the Glock foetay in favor of my agency's awesome alternate weapon policy, and will carry a 1911 for the duration of my career. I've tried to move to a plastic hammerless gun (Glock and XD) a couple of times, but I keep gravitating back to the tried and true 1911. Granted it is not of 1910s vintage, but the basic platform is the same. Will Glock be able to say that in a hundred years? Maybe or maybe not. Perhaps they'll make a Glock G-1911, everyone else is making them...:D
 
I don't think they are antiquated, just different.

I happen to prefer steel frames and single action triggers, and am willing to trade those for reduced ammo capacity and a few extra ounces of weight.

My most recently owned newer design was an XD-45. I traded it towards another 1911 after a couple years, because I noticed it didn't have any different effect on anything with which I shot it, and I enjoyed shooting it and carrying it less than my 1911.

With a full magazine and a spare on my belt, the supposed weight advantage disappeared.
 
Yes they are Antiquated. There are far more effective firearms out there. However that does not mean they are useless or ineffective.
 
I paid $630 NIB for my Kimber Custom II, it's the best handgun I have ever owned. I have carried Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, Taurus, S&W, Para-Ordnance, Ruger, etc.

Don't confuse "Good or Bad" with "I like it and I Don't like it." Personal preference and quality are two completely different things.

When Glocks are 100+ years old, they won't be more popular than ever.
 
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