1911 Question - Hammer down on loaded chamber?

[Azrael256]

Whilst contemplating various carry options for a 1911, I wondered about the idea of carrying it with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. I've got a five gallon bucket to fill with sand, so no problem with dropping the hammer safely, but I'm wondering about just how safe it would be to carry that way. I know how the firing pin works, but I don't know if it is so long as to rest right against the primer with the hammer down. Is it safe to do so? Would it discharge in that condition were it to be dropped on the hammer?

Btw, I've already contemplated "cocked and locked" as well as empty chamber, and have decided that those are the two proper options. This is really just sort of an academic exercise. For reference, I'm thinking of a Springfield GI model, but I'm interested in how this would work on other 1911s as well.

 

[71Commander]

Unsafe at any speed. C&L'ed is the safest way to carry a 1911 platform pistol. Trying to drop a hammer on a live round is asking for a AD, and it will happen sooner or later.

 

[21H40]

The pistol is made for C&L carry, and the only advantage to "hammer down" is that people that don't know the design feel safer -- it is a FALSE sense of safety.

The firing pin has some margin of error in manufacturing -- like anything made in a factory. With the hammer down, it pushes the firing pin forward somewhat (IIRC on my Kimber there was about 1/16" of firing pin sticking out) and that may be enough to let it rest upon the primer of the cartridge. It may not touch the primer, but it will put it significantly closer regardless. This seriously increases the chances of a chambered round being fired without your consent.

Have you taken your Springfield apart completely, yet? I HIGHLY reccomend reading several books on the 1911 design, gunsmithing, etc. This pistol is well designed, but complicated enough that most people mistake urban legend for fact. Als, THR seems to have several people that know ALOT more than I do about 1911's (I've been reading alot from 1911Tuner) and you can learn a good bit by following their old threads.

There is enough to learn about 1911's that you could just about stick to them exclusively for a good while.

 

[Azrael256]

on my Kimber there was about 1/16" of firing pin sticking out

That's about what I was figuring, just wasn't sure about it. I've pulled the whole thing apart before, but I didn't know if the hammer in the down position would push the firing pin out, and I didn't have a way to look down the barrel to see. I hadn't planned on carrying that way. Just curious about whether or not it would fire.

C&L is how I'm going to go with it, or possibly hammer down on an empty chamber if I feel so inclined. Thanks for the info.

most people mistake urban legend for fact

I am quite curious to know just what you mean by that. I know the basics about how everything works, and I've got the manual of arms down, but now you've got me wondering if I'm missing something.

 

[21H40]

I don't know that you're missing anything, and I can't say that I meant anything specific. In my experience, showing up at the range with a 1911 and a young face meant that every other shooter there had to explain all about the 1911. More often than not, this unrequested input was false. I'm trying to remember some of the... .. that some of those guys tried to feed me, but it's been almost a year since I've even SEEN my 1911, let alone been "educated" on it.

There just seem to be ALOT of people who claim to know about his style of pistol, but not too many who really do.

 

[psyopspec]

One other consideration - try timing yourself on drawing and firing with the pistol carried in C&L. Then try it with hammer down. You'll either have to use your firing thumb to rack the hammer back, which takes more time and creates a risk of dropping the pistol, or you'll have to wait until you have two hands on the gun and use the off-hand to cock it. Either way, it's slower, and dropping your pistol or being slow in an armed encounter are both dangerous. Odds are if you need your CCW, you're going to need it NOW, and not a second later.

 

[Bobby Lee]

If your 1911 has the proper lengh firing pin there is NO danger of it firing from a blow to the hammer if you carry hammer down.

You can tell if your firing pin is correct by removing the slide and using a knife blade or something to depress the rear of the firing pin where it is flush with the firing pin stop just like it would be if the hammer was against it and see if it sticks out of the breech face.

Before all the silly BS starts read this carefully. I AM NOT RECCOMENDING THAT ANYONE CARRY THEIR 1911 HAMMER DOWN.

I am only saying that IF you wish to do so you do not have to worry about it firing if you drop it on the hammer or somehow it gets a blow to the hammer.

I know it is hard for some of you 1911 "experts" to believe but there is a lot of people that carry the 1911 hammer down.

 

[The Drew]

If you want a "1911" that can be carried hammer down, then you need a para LDA. Beyond that you should only carry c&l as carrying hammer down or without a round chambered can be a quick way to get dead if you ever need your gun...

 

[1911Tuner]

Hammer Down

Although I don't recommend the practice of lowering the hammer on a hot chamber, it was once a common practice by those who carried the big Colt in
times past. The danger is in the lowering of the hammer...not in making it less drop-safe, by the way. As has been noted, if the firing pin is of the correct length, it won't touch the primer with the hammer down, and if the firing pin spring is in proper order and not shortened or worn out, the gun will be as drop-safe as it was originally designed to be. You'd have to drop it from a height of about 10 feet straight down onto a hard surface to fire it.

TIP: Over the years, I've noticed that some brands of primers are softer than others. Federal primers seem to be the most ticklish, while CCI are
quite a bit tougher. Winchester just about splits the difference.

So, there is an argument for carrying the gun in Condition 2 for those who want to do that. For one thing, some of the full-flap holsters, such as the WW2 and later era leather holsters flately refuse to button up with the pistol cocked, and even the more stretchy current military rigs are stubborn in that respect. If you need the protection of a flap holster, and you don't want to carry with an empty chamber, Condition 2 is an option. Just be careful. If you don't want a barrel of sand in your bedroom, a 2-foot stack of dry newspapers will do the trick nicely, and fits in a corner of your closet. Be sure to point the muzzle straight down, though...

 

[Geno]

I think the real issue is the style of firing pin safety

I have a couple of thoughts. I have to preface by saying that I am no 1911 expert!

First, the style of firing pin that your particular 1911 has is quite relevant. A Series II Kimber, or a Series 80 Colt (or other similar) should under no circumstances fire if dropped on a loaded chamber, correct? Obviously we all assume for safety-sake that ALL weapons are ALWAYS loaded and will ALWAYS go off if dropped. But, the design for such firing pins was that, was it not? But, if your 1911s, like ALL of my current 1911s are series I Kimbers or series 70 Colts, then you have a potential problem.

Second thought, inasmuch as all of my 1911s do not have firing pin safeties, I do use my lanyard. That, actually, is NOT my primary reason for the lanyard. I like having the pistol secured to my body and making it all the more difficult if jumped from behind that a bad-guy could take my pistol and run. Just try. They'd have to drag my body with them. By the way, forget the "cloth" lanyards...those are false security. I like the lanyards with coiled cable and rubber coated.

My final thought is that the 1911 was designed to be carried locked and loaded, and that is the reason the half-cock serration was put in…to protect against errant falls of the hammer once the safety was off. I read that in a magazine, and can’t recall which. I will add that info. When/if I see it again. Regarding the timing test, you’re right! I have conducted the timing of myself to see the difference of unloaded V. L&C, and for me (perhaps I'm just a slow old fart), but even if such, for me, I HAVE to carry L&C. I do not assume that if attacked, that I will have both arms/hands available for a racking of the slide! I assume, in fact, that I will NOT!

Here's an equally "entertaining", or educational test: Using "PLASTIC BULLETS"--NOT real, live rounds, try racking one-handed. Try reloading one-handed. In the CCW course I took some years back we had to do so. It was enlightening, humbling, and darned near impossible. Unless of course you trust the bad guy to do it for you.

Just the ramblings of an old man,

Doc2005

 

[Souris]

My 2 cents.

I would not carry any pistol with the hammer against the firing pin.
I would and do carry with the chamber loaded and the pistol on half- cock.
If I were going to carry with an empty chamber I would carry the pistol cocked so that when working the slide you don't have to overcome the main spring.

 

[Technosavant]

I carry my 1911 in Condition One (cocked & locked). Never once has the safety (an ambi safety, BTW) become disengaged inadvertently. Heck, I can't even disengage it on purpose if it is in the holster (Milt Sparks VM2). The frame/slide fit and springs in my pistol are tight enough to require a significant and determined effort to chamber a round (mine works better this way), so an empty chamber is not a good idea for me. Also, thumb-cocking a 1911 is an awkward motion, any way you slice it. Not what you want to be doing in an emergency situation.

The simplest and safest solution is to use the pistol as designed- cocked and locked. With the thumb safety engaged, the hammer won't drop (unless it is in poor repair due to an incompetent trigger job). Thumbing off a safety (especially that of the 1911 design) is simple and fast in a violent encounter. you can even be using your off-hand to engage the assailant during draw if circumstances and ranges warrant.

 

[BigG]

The Series 80 Colt blocks the inertial firing pin from moving forward without trigger pull. So it is OK with hammer either up or down. How you manipulate the piece is the question. The old guys, as 1911 Tuner mentioned, routinely lowered the hammer on a hot chamber or kept in on half cock. While C&L is the way to go, not everybody does that. YMMV

 

[mmike87]

Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911 safely. It is 100% safe when carried that way and functioning properly.

If you are not comfortable with that, there are other options for guns that operate differently and can be safely carried hammer down.

 

[brickeyee]

The 1911 has an inertial firing pin. It is physically to short to reach the primer unless struck by a falling hammer. If the hammer is resting on the firing pin stop the it cannot move forward to impart any momentum to the firing pin, and the firing pin will not be sticking out past the breech face.
The firing pin block in series 80 guns was intended to prevent the fantastically small chance that a gun dropped muzzle down could hit a hard surface and impart enough momentum to the firing pin to discharge a chambered round. Many manufacturers never used the mechanism in their 1911s, and Colt even offers new weapons in Series 70 without the block.

 

[mete]

There used to be some spanish made 1911 types that did not have an inertia firing pin.We would cut down the firing pin to the proper length making them much safer....BTW it is easy to uncock a 1911 safely - just hold your thumb over the firing pin .If your other thumb slips off the hammer ,the hammer just hits your thumb.

 

[45crittergitter]

The first thing that comes to mind is WHY carry hammer down? What is the advantage? Secondly, to clarify, the hammer does not have to hit the firing pin to cause a discharge when dropped. Even if the hammer stays cocked, or is already down, if the pistol lands on the muzzle hard enough, the inertial pin will move forward and strike the primer, assuming no firing pin block.

 

[Jim Watson]

To repeat, a gun of true 1911 specification with inertial firing pin is safe to carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber (Cooper's Condition 2.) Modern mutations like S80, SII, SA's Ti firing pin, and whathehellever S&W calls their gimmick protect against drop firing in any condition. As if a fresh firing pin spring had not been enough for all the previous decades.

There remain two problems:
1. Getting the hammer down. It can be done, I used to carry a Commander in Condition 2 and have eased down the hammer of my CZ75 for a DA start many times without an AD or even a close call.
2. Getting the hammer cocked when you need it to be. If you have a spur hammer (which I put on my Commander for the purpose and it still wears) and a regular grip safety it is readily done with the off side thumb as the gun comes to aim. Doing it one-handed is possible but is slower and less stable. I never dropped the gun doing it, but it was not always real secure.
If you have a burr hammer it gets harder and slower in both directions. A beavertail is a hindrance, too.

If you just must, I suggest you get acquainted with a IPSC or IDPA shooter with a shot timer and try drawing, cocking, and shooting the gun on the clock, vs a Condition 1 (cocked and locked) start, both hands, then one. You might change your mind.

 

[crucible]

Jim makes an important point: it could take significantly longer to draw and somehow manipulate the trigger back to cock it than it would simply to draw and manipulate the safety off. Whatever that time may or may not be, it's surely more awkward.

If you want a "1911" that can be carried hammer down, then you need a para LDA.

There's more than just that...option: the Cylinder and Slide SFS system can be put on any 1911, and it doesn't add the plethora of small parts nor detract from the frame like the LDA does, and the affected weapon maintains all the goodness of single action.

Chris

 

[Ivy Mike]

Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911 safely. It is 100% safe when carried that way and functioning properly.

I'd like to point out that you are trusting a mechanical device that is subject to the shock of exploding gun powder a few inches away.

Your last line should read It is usually safe when carried that way IF all pieces are functioning properly.


then again, you could just go for a less antiquated design...like a CZ

 

[Bobby Lee]

"I would not carry any pistol with the hammer against the firing pin.
I would and do carry with the chamber loaded and the pistol on half- cock"

That is by FAR the worst possible way to carry a 1911. It is by far the most dangerous carry condition.

 

[Technosavant]

GTI, any firearm in poor repair is dangerous. Heck, guns themselves are dangerous- that's why we carry them.

Assuming proper condition, C&L is the best way to carry a 1911, and is plenty safe. If you let your 1911 get into condition that poor (like I stated earlier, it would take some pretty incompetent amateur gunsmithing and/or uber-low quality parts made of Play-Doh), you probably can't be trusted with a CZ, Glock, revolver, or even a pointy stick.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I agree 1/2 cock is the most dangerous of all.

 

[brickeyee]

"if the pistol lands on the muzzle hard enough, the inertial pin will move forward and strike the primer, assuming no firing pin block."

Please show an example or a real test that has actually produced a discharge.
While it might be possible to place a 1911 on a heavy pendulum bob and drive it into a solid object hard enough to produce a discharge, this is more of a purely conjectural issue than a practical one.
It might also fire if you are carrying and hit by lightning.

 

[Souris]

I agree 1/2 cock is the most dangerous of all.

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"
Granted these weapons are long arms and have no other safety than empty chamber or half-cock.
I have always thought that half-cock on a pistol was a safety as well.

If I am wrong then now is a good time to learn.

Thanks.