Cocked/locked vs Hammer Down

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have been shooting various 1911 pistols as well as a few HiPowers for over 35 years, and nearly always carry them hammer down on a loaded chamber. I have never had any problem with this.
I now own 2 1911's, bought for my 60th birthday, both carried, boght hammer down.

mark
 
I carried in Condition 2 for several years. I still have the Commander with spur hammer installed for the purpose. But then I realized that I was following the recommendation of a southpaw who came up before ambidextrous safeties were available. So I went to Condition 1 and have been content with it ever since. If I want the hammer down, I have a Sig-Sauer with a lever for the purpose.

But I don't think it reasonable to attribute such things to what John Browning "intended."
Mr Browning was a businessman as well as an inventor and designer, and what he intended was to satisfy the customer; Colt and the Army, in this case. He started out in the field with a .38 automatic. The Army wanted a .45, he designed and Colt made a .45. (When the Army got dissatisified with the .38 revolver in the Philippines, Colt prototyped a .41 auto, but the Army wanted a .45 that had worked for them in the Indian Wars.) The Army wanted a grip safety, they got a grip safety. The Army wanted a Luger style magazine catch, they got a Luger style magazine catch. (Interesting that what is now known as the "American style" magazine catch was first seen in any number on a German gun.) The Army wanted a thumb safety, the Army got a thumb safety. I think I see a pattern here.
 
But I don't think it reasonable to attribute such things to what John Browning "intended."
Click to expand...

Precisely. I don't think Browning gave a rip which condition the gun was carried in...and after he was finished with the work...my guess would be that he was probably pretty sick of the whole thing and glad to be movin' on.
 
You hear much praise of Browning as a gun designer, and that praise is deserved. What you don't hear so often is what a shrewd businessman he was. I am amused by the way he would sell patent rights for a new rifle to Winchester, then sell Winchester the rights to patents covering things that competitors might do to evade the first patent.
 
I think I see a pattern here.
Click to expand...

Of course, and you're right.

The issue I see here is that some insist that cocked & locked is the ONLY WAY to carry the pistol, excluding all other options, and regardless of the circumstances. I contend that the design offers several options, and the user may chose between them depending on his or her's personal desires and judgment. :scrutiny:
 
But I don't think it reasonable to attribute such things to what John Browning "intended."
Mr Browning was a businessman as well as an inventor and designer, and what he intended was to satisfy the customer; Colt and the Army, in this case. He started out in the field with a .38 automatic. The Army wanted a .45, he designed and Colt made a .45. (When the Army got dissatisified with the .38 revolver in the Philippines, Colt prototyped a .41 auto, but the Army wanted a .45 that had worked for them in the Indian Wars.) The Army wanted a grip safety, they got a grip safety. The Army wanted a Luger style magazine catch, they got a Luger style magazine catch. (Interesting that what is now known as the "American style" magazine catch was first seen in any number on a German gun.) The Army wanted a thumb safety, the Army got a thumb safety. I think I see a pattern here.
Click to expand...

Oh that's beautiful! Very well said.

Might have to make some of that a signature line.
 
I believe that it is perfectly safe to carry "cocked and locked", and In fact, I think that is the best way to carry such a pistol.

Once you chamber a round the weapon is already cocked, so the only additional action required to make the gun safe is to switch the manual safety on....at no time is the user in any real danger of an unintended discharge.

But to manually lower the hammer on a chambered round is to take an un-neccessary risk of an unintended discharge for no gain in safety.
 
Hammer Bite:

Browning didn't sell any of his patents, he would lease the rights to manufacture to various companies such as Winchester, Remington, Colt and Fabrique Nationale. That's why those early guns were marked, "Browning Pat.".
 
Apparently the arrangement between Browning and the Winchester Repeating Arms Company was never formalized in a general contract. Winchester stood ready to purchase all of his patents having to do with shotguns and rifles and Browning would send his working models to New Haven as soon as he developed them. The Company made the necessary patent search and arrangements for application to the Patent Office. The patents were taken out in Browning's name and assigned to Winchester at a price that was agreed on for each invention.

It should be noted that the Company always made an outright purchase and never entered into a royalty agreement with Browning.

Excerpted from Winchester, The Gun that Won the West, Harold F. Williamson.

The relationship between Browning and Winchester deteriorated when Browning decided he wanted royalties for his auto shotgun design. Winchester balked at the idea and Browning took the design to FN.
 
I carry my 1911 I carry condition one W/ a retaining strap between the firing pin.
Click to expand...
Be careful -- the snap on the retaining strap can rub on the safety lock thumb piece and disengage it.

I have found that no restraining/"safety" strap is better. I have never drawn my M1911 from a holster without a restraining/"safety" strap and found the safety lock already disengaged.

I can't say that about those holsters I have had with such devices.

My own holster design incorporates leather between the butt of the gun and the body, and there is a "button" or cam sewn on that part of the holster. You can take an empty M1911 with the safety lock disengaged, shove it in the holster, and when you pull it out, it will be on safe -- the "button" cams the lever to the safe position and holds it there.
 
The issue I see here is that some insist that cocked & locked is the ONLY WAY to carry the pistol, excluding all other options, and regardless of the circumstances. I contend that the design offers several options, and the user may chose between them depending on his or her's personal desires and judgment.
Click to expand...

Old Fuff is correct here.

Carry the gun the way you feel is best based on the circumstances. Learn the gun. Learn how to safely place it in condition two. If you don't want to have the gun this way well then don't use it that way. But it can and has been done safely for decades.

The calvary wanted the thumb safety. The idea was that it would be used to make the gun safe during interruptions in firing, that is while moving from point A to point B. In the holsters that they had at the time the safety was swiped off when at a full gallop. Several years later the military redesigned the holster and requested a redesign of the thumb safety so that the gun could be kept safely in the holster C&L as an option.

I've slept with the gun in sleeping bags. C&L is no good for that. I've carried the piece in full flap holsters while hiking across rough country. I've carried condition 2. I've driven with the gun on the floor of a truck where C&L would be a problem. I've stood security on picket lines with a 1911 in the pocket of an overcoat where C&L would be a problem, etc., etc.

As I said before I also carry C&L in a good rig. The 1911 is versatile but it takes dedication to it and study, to learn to use it safely.

tipoc
 
Mr. Cocked & Locked, that is a very nice barbeque gun you got there! What is it exactly? I remember Colt did some fancy high polished stainless guns like that in the late 1980s with names like "Patron" and "Comondante".

More and more I find that I like the 1911 with fittings more along the line of Brownings originals - things like the military flat hammer, no front serrations, no beavertail, etc.

One reason is that it is more versatile. For a gun that is going to always be carried in a holster the 'modern style' works well (Commander hammer, beavertail.) For a gun carried in Condition 2 the original works better.
 
Is it a physical problem...like arthritis..or is it a matter of leverage?

If you know how, you can cock it pretty easily.
Click to expand...

No no, it's leverage. Maybe because it's a fairly new gun, it's still kinda tight, but I have to grab the gun with both hands to manually cock the hammer.
 
If you not going to carry it cocked and locked, get a different handgun that you're not scared of when it's loaded and ready to fire. Perhaps a double action auto is more your speed.

Carrying it with a round in the chamber with the hammer down on a series 80 is safe with regards to it being resistant to discharge should the weapon be dropped.
 
No no, it's leverage.
Click to expand...

Holster the gun empty...hammer down. As your hand starts to aquire the pistol...fingers against the frontstrap, cock the hammer with your thumb...not with the pad...but with the the joint, or just below the joint. You roll the hammer back with your hand executing a rearward rocking motion. Done correctly, the pad of your thumb should now be hooked and bearing down onto the hammer face, and actually holding it past full cock...spur touching the grip safety...as you begin to pull the pistol from the holster.

For safety's sake, your thunb should ramain hooked with the pad bearing on the hammer until the pistol is well clear of the leather...at which time, the thumb moves off the hammer into the natural firing position...and your finger enters the trigger guard as the gun moves through the arc toward the target.

With a little practice, it becomes smooth and surprisingly fast, and as long as the thumb pad remains on the face of the hammer, you have a "safety" that blocks the hammer so that...even if you unintentionally touch the trigger...the hammer can't drop unless you slide your thumb off of it while the trigger is pulled. Even if the pad of your thumb slips, you still have the area under the joint applying pressure and friction against the top of the hammer spur, which slows the hammer should it get away from you, making an AD less likely.

With the hammer, cocked correctly as described above...you'd almost have to try to unintentionally fire the gun...which would make it intentional.

Work with it a little...gun empty...then with primed, empty cases to let you understand how hard it would be to get the gun to fire without meaning to.

I've taught this method to several people who remain unconvinced that the 1911 is safe to carry in Condition 1...and they've come to be proficient with presenting the gun, and a few have become wicked fast using it.

To decock the hammer...reverse the cocking motion. Hook your thumb and place the pad on the hammer face. Pull the hammer past full cock to insure that you have control of it. Pull the trigger, and roll the hammer down by slowly straightening your thumb, maintaining downward pressure on the spur. Keep your thumb hooked a little, to keep some of the pad between the hammer face and the slide. If you have small hands, you may want to use your weak hand to give you better control, and to depress the grip safety...but pulling the hammer spur against the grip safety usually disengages it unless you have a high upswept grip safety and a rowel hammer.

People with normal to large hands can cock and decock the pistol one-handed all day long without incident...but practice it dry to find your sweet spot. Every hand is different.
 
If you not going to carry it cocked and locked, get a different handgun that you're not scared of when it's loaded and ready to fire.
Click to expand...

I must respectfully beg to differ.

Repeat:

Cocked and Locked is an option...not the 11th Commandment. Sometimes, cocked and locked isn't the best way...much less the only way.

Hammer cocked during outdoor activities...even in a flap holster...opens the action up to all sorts of debris that can't find its way in with the hammer down. Here...Condition 2 gets the nod.

I'm not promoting Condition 2 carry. I carry in C-1 *almost* all the time. Once in a while, I carry in C-2...when the conditions call for it, and I still want to have the ability to operate the gun with one hand.
 
When I was a little kid I found my uncles 1911. He kept it in a drawer by the side of his bed. When he wasn't around I used to go look at it. One time I snuck it outside and tried to shoot it and I couldn't. Years later I told him and asked about it. He said that he kept the gun hammer down on an empty chamber when he wasn't around. He knew if we, meaning the kids, found it we wouldn't be able to rack the slide. At night he said when he slept he kept a loaded round in the chamber and hammer down. He'd brought the piece back with him from the war where he'd served in the Pacific theater. He carried the piece in a coat pocket hammer down usually. He had only one holster for it. It looked like one of the ones below.

From 9 o'clock Eubanks, A Brauer Bros. IWB, a Viking, a Heiser, and at 6 o'clock a Lawrence. Note that all of the straps pass over the grip safety. All these are from the 40s to the 60s or so.
vintagerigs.gif

He my father and I used to go hunt jackrabbits and my uncle used the .45 He'd carry it hammer down on a live round till he shot something than C&L it'd go back in the holster. He'd switch back and forth as needed.

He wasn't afraid of C&L, nor of his pistol. Died in the early 70s.

tipoc
 
Last edited:
At first I was wary of the 1911 in condition 1. Not afraid, just concerned. I was then told by a fellow shooter that to overcome the fear was simple. This is the fix. Take your firearm and unload. Ensure that the magazine is removed, the chamber is empty. Rack the slide and place the thumb safety on and place the firearm in your holster. Now, do this every time you are walking around your house. After a good ten hours or so of doing this you will gain confidence that guess what... THE HAMMER WILL NOT FALL UNLESS YOU PULL THE TRIGGER. There are two safeties. The grip and the thumb. The chances of these both failing are slim to none and if you have actually performed a functionality test and your firearm passes you shouldn't worry. I am not bashing the people that carry hammer down. More power to you. I would rather you over a sheep any day but why add another step in the defense of your life and the lives of others around you. Also, there is a larger chance of an AD while manually cocking the hammer in a high stress situation than an AD while sweeping off the thumb safety.
 
At first I was wary of the 1911 in condition 1. Not afraid, just concerned.
Click to expand...

The pure truth is that there is some reason to be concerned. While the 1911 pistol in Condition One is about as safe with a chambered round as any firearm can be ...it also requires that all systems are functional and in good repair.

There's always a cetain level of risk when you have a chambered round and no mechanical block for the hammer. This is one of the reasons that double-action revolvers have one...even though the hammers rebound and prevent firing pin contact with the primer.

When the hammer is poised to strike...the level of risk rises. And no...The Series 80 system isn't there to prevent discharge when the hammer falls...trigger pulled or not. It will do that...but that's not its intent. If it's not designed with that function in mind, it's at least subject to fail. Murphy is alive and well, after all.

Hammer down on a hot chamber with an inertial firing pin, and the level of risk goes down. In this mode, you only have to be concerned with dropping the gun straight onto its muzzle from a high step ladder. Again, this assumes that the firing pin length is correct, and the firing pin spring is in good shape.

This is the circumstance that the Series 80 system covers. It negates much of the need for a good firing pin spring, although that doesn't make it unnecessary to replace it every so often.

The only way to cover all bases, and render the gun completely safe is to carry it in Condition 3...no round in the chamber...because there is always a certain level of risk when carrying or handling a loaded gun.

Or...as the man said:

"It's a GUN! It's NOT safe!"
 
Under duress, the seemingly simple become difficult, thus the fine motor skills required to perform the cocking of the hammer could become problematic, whereas the quite natural act of swiping the thumb saftey is quite easy.

If you are uneasy w/ Condition 1 carry, then try practicing Condition 3 carry/ presentation. The gross motor skill movements of this technique are much easier to accomplish under duress. It goes like this: Upon clearing the holster, while in the "retention position" grasping the slide with the weak hand and thrusting the weapon out towards the oppo, chambering a round and "picking up" the front sight as you assume a good two handed hold.

I know this sounds complicated but it's much easier to do than it is to explain. The students of the old MCSF Bn. Pac. Schools used to accomplish this task with the condition 3 M1911A1, from the holster, and engaging w/ 2rds @ 7m, 10m & 15m in under 3 seconds. It just takes many reps ( around 3,000, normally) in order to accquire the "muscle memory" to establish it as a conditioned response.
 
I don't like either. I prefer DA or DAO. I also like revolvers. Under stress, it's amazing how light and short through that DA trigger is. I know this from actual experience. I don't care much for a 10 ounce SA trigger, not on a defense gun, thanks. To each his own. Revolvers have been quite effective for a long, long time and continue today to be a safe, effective platform. I like my autos to be bottom feeding, square revolvers. :D I gave up 1911s 20 years ago and haven't looked back.
 
Bad idea to carry hammer down on loaded chamber. Perennial question, both sides weigh in, poster usually ends up carrying the way he or she initially wanted to anyway. :)
And, based on the development of the 1911's design evolution, I still maintain Browning did not design it or intend it to be routinely carried cocked & locked. :)
Denis
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
More on Cocked and Locked
2
Replies
37
Views
2K
M1911
M
D
  • Locked
Carrying Single Action with Hammer Down
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
4K
jem375
J
.455_Hunter
  • Locked
Perferred Carry Method for Walther TPH and Beretta 950 BS
Replies
1
Views
1K
MICHAEL T
M
L
  • Locked
C&L Vs. Hammer down?
Replies
22
Views
1K
1911Tuner
1
M
  • Locked
cocked and locked
2
Replies
33
Views
1K
Handy
H
Back
Top