1911 Question - Hammer down on loaded chamber?

[Bobby Lee]

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"

If you have a 1911 without the firing pin lock and you are carring hammer down and it gets a blow to the hammer the gun will not fire.

If you have it on half cock it and it gets a hard blow to the hammer it can break or bend the sear and the hammer can strike the firing pin hard enough to fire the round. I personaly know of this happening.

Even if it does not have an AD you have just put your pistol out of action untill you can replace the sear.

The purpose of the half cock notch on the 1911 it to stop the fall of the hammer if it slips off the sear from full cock or if you are cocking the hammer and you let it slip.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"

If you have a 1911 without the firing pin lock and you are carring hammer down and it gets a blow to the hammer the gun will not fire.

If you have it on half cock it and it gets a hard blow to the hammer it can break or bend the sear and the hammer can strike the firing pin hard enough to fire the round. I personaly know of this happening.

Even if it does not have an AD you have just put your pistol out of action untill you can replace the sear.

The purpose of the half cock notch on the 1911 it to stop the fall of the hammer if it slips off the sear from full cock or if you are cocking the hammer and you let it slip.

Don't confuse long guns with handguns. The Colt model 1873 "Peacemaker" has a half-cock notch, too -- but to be safe you carry with 5 cartridges in the cylinder and an empty hole under the hammer. The half-cock notch fulfills the same function on the 1911. It's not there as a "safe" carry position, because if the sear slips off for any reason -- the gun's going to fire. It's there as a catch for if the hammer accidently falls from the full-cock position without the trigger being pulled.

 

[355sigfan]

The best way to carry a 1911 is Cocked and locked the only other safe method is condition 3 chamber empty. Its actually faster to rack the slide than it is to try and cock the hammer. Its a gross motor skill vs a fine motor skill. If your too timid for condition one you really need to get some training or another gun you can feel comfortable with.
Pat

 

[slopemeno]

If youre not totally comfortable with Condition 1(Cocked, safety on, round in the chamber) carry it in Condition 3 (empty chamber, hammer down, loaded magazine in chamber)

In my league shooting days, we experimented with the speed of various conditions. Condition 1 was fastest, followed by Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber)-and so close it almost made no difference-Condition 3.
Sounds like a DA revolver would be a better choice for this person anyway.

And going back to the Lever actions, etc-Remember that a '94 (for that matter probably all Browning designed external hammer longuns) has a firing pin that, if the hammer is all the way down-rests RIGHT on the primer. Want to drop it? They were intended, at the time, to be carried with a loaded chamber and the hammer on half-cock. Best bet here is to carry it in "Cruiser safe", that is, Loaded magazine, empty chamber, cycle when ready to fire.

 

[Majic]

Don't confuse long guns with handguns. The Colt model 1873 "Peacemaker" has a half-cock notch, too

And don't confuse a SAA with a 1911. Bobby Lee was talking about carrying with the hammer completely down and not on the half-cock shelf. The SAA is carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber because a blow to the hammer (which has the firing pin mounted on it) on a loaded chamber can fire it. A blow to the hammer on a 1911 that is fully down on a loaded chamber won't fire it because the inertia firing pin won't generate enough energy.

 

[Bobby Lee]

The best way to carry a 1911 is Cocked and locked the only other safe method is condition 3 chamber empty.

A few of you keep saying this but you have no facts to make the claim that condition 2 carry is somehow dangerous.

If you know how the 1911 works then you have to know that the 1911 can not have an AD with the hammer down so please tell us how it is dangerous to carry condition 2.

You can say it is dangerous getting into condition 2 IF one does not know the proper way to decock a 1911 but once the hammer is down it is SAFE.

 

[Technosavant]

Bobby-

Want to race?

I'll take my condition 1 1911 and be timed against your condition 2 1911. We'll see who gets lead out of the barrel first.

Condition 2, provided you get the hammer down safely (which is still risking a ND every time), is still slower to get into the fight than a condition 1, or possibly even a condition 3 1911. That would be the TRUE definition of unsafe.

 

[Mute]

This question rears its ugly head every so often. What I have yet to hear each time from Condition 2 proponents is any good reason or advantages to using that particular method.

 

[Bobby Lee]

I am not telling anyone to carry condition 2. I have never said it offers any advantage in any way.

I just would like to know why you assume it is "dangerous" to carry the gun in condition 2.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I just would like to know why you assume it is "dangerous" to carry the gun in condition 2.

It has been said, "They call it Condition 2 because it offers you two chances to have a negligent discharge, once when you lower the hammer, and once when you cock it."

The Army -- who had a lot of input into the design of this weapon -- only authorized Conditions 1 and 3. Never Condition 2.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"

The hammer on a handgun is exposed to a blow, whereas the hammer on a rifle (like a Winchester 94) is protected from most directions.

A friend of mine told me the following story: "We found a tunnel and one of my men said, 'I'll check it out, Captain, if you'll lend me your .45.'

"Well, when he gave it back to me, he forgot to put it on half-cock, and when I slung my M16, the rifel butt it hit the hammer of the .45, and BANG! Fortunately, it only shot the heel off my boot."

I turned white-- but he nearly passed out when I explained what had happened -- the impact of the rifle butt BROKE either the sear nose or the half-cock notch. And he continued to carry that same pistol with a broken half-cock, without ever stripping it to check its internal condition!!

 

[Double Maduro]

Stacey Keach, in the old Mike Hammer tv. series, caried a 1911 in condition 2. Laughed every time I saw it. He would draw and hit a guy upside the head with it, then stick it up his nose and cock the hammer. Or he would be holding some bg at gun point and when things started to go south, he would cock it.

So much for tv.

DM

 

[Bobby Lee]

It has been said, "They call it Condition 2 because it offers you two chances to have a negligent discharge, once when you lower the hammer, and once when you cock it."

That is one of the reasons there is a half cock notch. If screw up cocking the hammer it will not fire because the half cock notch stops the fall of the hammer. Unless you are stupid enough to cock it with your finger on the trigger.

 

[Bobby Lee]

"Well, when he gave it back to me, he forgot to put it on half-cock, and when I slung my M16, the rifel butt it hit the hammer of the .45, and BANG! Fortunately, it only shot the heel off my boot."

If it had been in condition 2 it would not have fired so we at least have one example of the need for condition 2.

 

[carebear]

I think that story equally points to just putting the thumb safety on before holstering.

 

[Technosavant]

My argument against C2 carry is not that it is inherently hazardous (assuming you manage to cock/uncock it without EVER making an error), as a matter of fact I would not expect ever to have a completely lowered hammer trigger a ND.

BUT, carrying a firearm implies that a person is preparing for an unforeseen session of combat. Getting a C2 1911 into C0 condition (ready to fire) is going to take more time and be a more awkward action (especially if it has a bobbed hammer and a beavertail safety). A gun which takes longer to get into action could get you killed. If, under stress a person's finger slips off the hammer and it is caught by the half-cock shelf, it is one other malfunction to fix before use.

While somebody else carrying C2 is no skin off my neck, I won't do it. Also, I would also recommend a different firearm is a cocked hammer is too scary for a person to be carrying. Even a SA/DA pistol would be an improvement to failing to employ your firearm when it becomes necessary.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That is one of the reasons there is a half cock notch. If screw up cocking the hammer it will not fire because the half cock notch stops the fall of the hammer. Unless you are stupid enough to cock it with your finger on the trigger.

The half-cock is more accurately called an intercepting safety. And you're right that its real purpose is to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if it slips.

But an intercepting safety is like a crash helmit -- good for one crash only. Try thumb-cocking a .45 when drawing from the holster and notice how clumsy it is. Sooner or later, you will slip -- and after that the smart thing to do is replace both hammer and sear. Which you will want to do anyway, after you see the effect of battering those parts on the trigger pull.

If it had been in condition 2 it would not have fired so we at least have one example of the need for condition 2.

While it illustrates why you should not carry on half-cock, it doesn't make condition 2 any safer or quicker.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Cocked and locked has failed from time to time

Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911 safely. It is 100% safe when carried that way and functioning properly

To my knowledge when carried cocked and locked in an open strapless

(once upon a time thumbreak or strap between the hammer and slide was thought a good idea but it wasn't used in this case nor is a strap much used now)

holster the hammer caught the edge of the desk and maybe lifted off the sear then fell forward and missed the intercepting safety (half cock). I suppose there is some possibility of a chain of failures perhaps the hammer was shoved hard enough by the desk edge to fall straight forward. All I really know is the pistol discharged in the holster hands free while cocked and locked but bumped (and no it wasn't me, I've always pulled the trigger for my own negligent discharges)

I'll carry cocked and locked in a nice Alessi holster that's boned to hold the safety on but I'll worry a little bit too. Maybe some sort of gun retention reflex can be triggered when anything at all gets too close to the pistol.

The answer to 100% safe: is gun, is dangerous.

 

[Majic]

BUT, carrying a firearm implies that a person is preparing for an unforeseen session of combat.

So many people associate carrying a handgun with SD and I think that's a shame they overlook other uses of the handgun. It could also be used in plinking, hunting, or target shooting. In these situations the speed of the first shot may not be your goal. Carrying in condition 2 could be a viable option if you so choose. The cocking and decocking of a single action revolver is a fact of life. You don't hear of any massive numbers of NDs with the revolvers as shooters do this everyday. The procedure is the same with a 1911. If you don't agree with using condition 2 with a 1911 then don't do it, but others have been using their 1911s this way and will continue to do so.

 

[355sigfan]

So many people associate carrying a handgun with SD and I think that's a shame they overlook other uses of the handgun. It could also be used in plinking, hunting, or target shooting. In these situations the speed of the first shot may not be your goal. Carrying in condition 2 could be a viable option if you so choose. The cocking and decocking of a single action revolver is a fact of life. You don't hear of any massive numbers of NDs with the revolvers as shooters do this everyday. The procedure is the same with a 1911. If you don't agree with using condition 2 with a 1911 then don't do it, but others have been using their 1911s this way and will continue to do so.
END QUOTE

The primary reason to own a handgun is self defense. All other functions are seconday to its life saving role.
Pat

 

[Bobby Lee]

The primary reason to own a handgun is self defense. All other functions are seconday to its life saving role

I am sure many people own handguns that they use for other things besides self defense.

 

[Bobby Lee]

So many people associate carrying a handgun with SD and I think that's a shame they overlook other uses of the handgun. It could also be used in plinking, hunting, or target shooting. In these situations the speed of the first shot may not be your goal. Carrying in condition 2 could be a viable option if you so choose.

I know a rancher who carries a 1911 with him every day. He works with it on. He uses it to shoot snakes and other varmits.

He sees no need to carry it cocked and locked and in reality he has no need to do so.

He carries it condition two.

 

[355sigfan]

He carries it for snakes so that is a form of defense. Even if it was for pure plinking condition one is the best way to use the 1911. If your too timid Condition 3 is another option far better than condition 2 which is down right unsafe and slow into action.
Pat

 

[Vern Humphrey]

He carries it for snakes so that is a form of defense. Even if it was for pure plinking condition one is the best way to use the 1911. If your too timid Condition 3 is another option far better than condition 2 which is down right unsafe and slow into action.

I agree. As I tried to point out, if you carry Condition 2, some day you are going to slip while thumb-cocking your gun. Yes, the intercepting safety half-cock feature MAY prevent an ND. But it won't do the sear and half-cock notch any good.

There's no good reason to carry Condition 2, and a couple of good reasons NOt to.

 

[1911Tuner]

Con-2 Carry



Before this one goes to critical mass...

Condition 1 carry is the best way, with Condition 3 running a distant second...but Condition 2 does have its place under certain circumstances
NOT related to fast presentation in an emergency. Please note that I am NOT a fan of Condition 2 carry, though I have done it on occasion.

As noted, some full-flap holsters don't lend themselves to fully closing with the hammer cocked. In the odd circumstance that one would need the protection afforded by a flap holster...backpacking, off-roading, camping in
dusty or wet conditions, in which the gun needs to be covered AND the owner wants to retain the ability to bring the gun into play with one hand...
Condition 2 carry is called for. Yes...racking the slide is only a tick slower,
much safer and more positive by virtue of the gross motor skill issue...but
two hands aren't always available. Yes...A fumble is possible. Same goes for
fast presentation with Condition 1 from an open-topped rig when adrenalin runs high. Murphy is always present. We don't carry a pistol when we KNOW that we'll be having a problem...We carry the pistol for the off-chance that we just might have a need for it. The pistol doesn't guarantee success, no
matter what the carry condition...Neither does a Second Chance vest nor a seat belt. It merely increases our odds in a bad situation.

Never, ever carry the gun on half-cock. I'll go to the wall on that one.