1911 Question - Hammer down on loaded chamber?

[1911Tuner]

Re:

Brickeyee....Bingo!

Clark...Excellent! I don't have high-rise ducktails or memory pads on my pistols...I know that they do make one-hand manipulation a bit problematical...which is one of the reasons that I don't have'em. The standard Commander GS that emerged with the Series 80s works as well as the GM safety and hammer. I can still hook the pad of my thumb over the hammer face for both moves.

The invitation stands. Stop in and see us. You too, Vern. Anybody that comes through the area is welcome to visit. Hope ya'll are into farm scenery.
The place is positively bucolic...

 

[jem375]

I have carried in all 3 conditions according to the situation.....cond. 1 in SD mode, cond.2 walking in the woods, biking, or at home, cond.3 in the service on SP duty where it was mandatory ......any and all are ok to use depending on the situation and they do vary....

 

[shield20]

The original recommendations Thompson laid down for what would be come the 1911 indeed included a request for "a safety lock, or a hammer and rebound firing pin. The lock should be placed so as to be readily operated by the thumb. It should be of such size and shape and in such a position as to prevent its being displaced when drawing or returning pistol or when carrying loaded pistol in holster."

Models 1909 & 1910 were experimented with by Browning and finally modified with a safety lock as had been described a couple years earlier. If the addition of this safety was not intended to allow Cocked and locked carry, what was its purpose then, especially since it can only be activated with the hammer back?

 

[355sigfan]

I have carried in all 3 conditions according to the situation.....cond. 1 in SD mode, cond.2 walking in the woods, biking, or at home, cond.3 in the service on SP duty where it was mandatory ......any and all are ok to use depending on the situation and they do vary....
__________________
Life is too short to spend it with an ugly gun......

END QUOTE

Your asking for trouble with muscle memory. It takes over 2000 repetitions to build muscle memory. If you carry your gun 3 different ways you will most likely draw your gun and not cock it, not rack it or forget to take the safety off. Carry the gun one way the same way every time then it will work as it should. There is no reason to vary your styles for carring a 1911. If you can't handle condition one then a da design is a better option for you. The 1911 is a poor choice when its not carried in condition 1.
Pat

 

[jem375]

never said I couldn't handle cond.1.......I have been carrying a 1911 for 45 years and think by this time I know how to handle a 1911 in any mode...I also have DA/SA's with no decockers on them and have to lower the hammer in order to start out DA on my Witness 10MM's...If I want speed will have it in cond.1, but since the CC law in Minnesota is only 2 years old, will probably carry in cond.1 when SD is my object....don't need it in the woods since man eating trees don't grow here.........If I am worried about big 4 legged predators with big teeth will carry my 44 mag with Garrett's heavyweight lead bullets

 

[1911Tuner]

Muscle Memory

Wholeheartedly agree Sigfan...I've used the carry rig as a memory jogger. If it's in a flap holster, it's in Two. Open topped rig, and it's in One. I don't carry in Three. That's nightstand/Storage Condition. Also don't care much for thumb break holsters, and prefer a simple strap for retention...due mainly to my method of presentation...scooping the gun up from below instead of closing my hand on it from above. Strap works better for that. Thumb break is clumsy for me. IWB is good in hot weather...OWB in Cold...unless I head for the boonies in Winter...Then it's "Back to the Flap."

Howdy Shield, and welcome aboard!

The thunb safety's function is covered in the Army's Field manual for the pistol. Scroll back up for the quote, but basically: "The pistol is to be carried
in the holster with loaded magazine, hammer forward and chamber empty. If
action is iminent, the chamber may be loaded and the manual safety lock engaged, and the pistol either kept in hand or returned to the holster."

 

[crucible]

That thing is actually pretty old...It just hasn't been very popular. I've seen one. It worked as advertised, but seems a bit busy for a lifesaving tool...at least in my view. In other words...The more gadgety it is, the more Murphy it gets.

Actually, as I've used and carried one for more than six months to test just for myself, I have to disagree: I find that the C&S system to be a robust, well-made package (with one personal nitpick), that does not add complexity or a bunch of flimsy parts, cutting into the frame to make room for them, nor does it change the familiar manual-of-arms to do so either.

I did a long term test and review of it here (with my summary in the quote): http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=100323

There is some truth to the calling of the SFS system a "solution looking for a problem". Does adding the SFS to a 1911 make it safer? The addition of a firing pin safety makes this answer a technical yes when installed in a series 70, not that carrying with the hammer down on a loaded chamber is standard fare. It does nothing for series 80 to that end, and of course legions of people have or do carry a standard 1911 C&L without incident (myself included). Do I feel any safer with the system? This is a tougher one to answer. It provides me with the ability of carrying a round in the chamber in total safety *and* be able to frequently check the status of the weapon easily and quickly *and* remain ready for instant employment in the process, so my bottom line answer is yes. It's icing on the cake that the trigger has noticeably been improved in the process, and I gained an extended slide release. matching thumb safety, and interesting looking hammer as well. I also trust it enough to carry it in defense of me and my loved ones.

What I'm not doing with this review is advocating that the SFS system as being a natural progression of the 1911 design, as that implies inevitability and more importantly, implies somehow a weakness that needs correcting, despite in the same breath wondering what Mr. Browning would do today if he could. However, I do believe that the SFS system is an interesting and useful 1911 design fork, one that stays true to it's heart by adding a robust option for the 1911 in an ingeniously-designed, easy-to-install package. For me, it was money well (and interestingly) spent.

I'm keeping it.

Since that review, I've removed the ambi-safety portion as that was the only nitpick I had and that I've not taken a liking to ambi-safeties in general. I've also reverted to my stock slide stop as it fits my barrel's link a bit better. Overall however, it continues to work flawlessly.

I strongly suspect the reason it isn't more popular isn't it's added complexity (it doesn't do so) or belief that it uses sub-standard quality parts (it doesn't), or even that it requires a drastic manual-of-arms change to operate it (it doesn't at all), but simply the overall distrust of anything new by the 1911 community of which I'm certainly a part. Regardless of merit or the lack therof. (I sometimes think that of all gun folks, 1911 folks collectively are the equivilant of the curmudgonly old man who screams "get off my lawn!" to all the neighborhood kids of come near )

Chris

 

[shield20]

Agreed Tuner - that's my point - that the 1911 WAS intended to be used with cocked and locked carry - IT (the 1911, not the previous models), was designed and adopted that way, as requested by the military and provided for by Browning.


As mentioned already, the FM manuals spell it out too. To think it is some recent phenomenom is a bit...off.

 

[Edgeofthewoods]

I'll agree with you on that 1911 Tuner!. I am a firm believer of leaving a 1911 alone the way St Browning made it. My GI after break in has been the perfect companion. I use three different holsters. My primary is a Bianchi Shawdow holster of about 5 years old. #2 is a Desantis Tuck this. (With a couple of mods to support a 1911 better. #3 is a Bladetech Kydex. It is the lightest and fastest of the three. With all three it is standard Condition one carry. I still get the , "Excuse me sir did you know your gun is cocked"? I once answered Yes thank you but my weapon is also cocked! The Bianchi gives me less of them comments since the thumbreak is between the hammer and frame. It is nice to live in a starte where you have thwe choice of concealed or open carry

Chuck

 

[1911Tuner]

Off

Shield said:
>As mentioned already, the FM manuals spell it out too. To think it is some recent phenomenom is a bit...off.<
*************************

Howdy again Shield...Not exaclty. We're almost there though.

Because the gun was okay or even designed to allow Cocked and Locked, isn't to assume that the Army OR JMB actually intended for it to be carried that way for extended periods. The Army was and is pretty adamant about clearing weapons and returning them to Condition 3 or even 4 when the iminent emergency goes to a stand down. Maybe I should've said that carrying the gun in Con-1 *all the time* is a recent concept. That it COULD be kept that way for months or years without damage, loss of reliability, or safety issues didn't mean that it was meant to be...only that it could be.
That was recognized and quickly adopted by modern-day gunmen who fully understood the pistol and wanted to carry the best pure fighting handgun around...and take full advantage of its capabilities. The ones who are either afraid to carry it or refuse to carry it in that condition don't fully understand the redundant safety features that make it less likely to AD than many more modern, "safer" designs. I've experimented extensively with the gun, and demonstrated to many who have reservations over it, that unless the sear completely shatters, the half-cock will stop the hammer. I cut a full 1/8th inch off the sear crown, and the half-cock not only stopped it cold, the freakin' hammer hooks still caught and held it. I was able to fire the gun with no loss of function or reliability for nearly a hundred rounds...with .125 inch of the sear crown cut off! When the hammer began to follow the slide, I stopped. Of course, this was done with full .030 inch hammer hooks.

Again...I can't recommend lowering the hammer on the gun. It was and is a
risky move. I only entered this to provide information and suggest that the function be explored IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE IT. If one is willing to take the time to figure out how to do it safely and smoothly...and dry practice until it can be done a hundred or so times in a row without a fumble...If not, then it's best to carry it in 1 or 3.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Because the gun was okay or even designed to allow Cocked and Locked, isn't to assume that the Army OR JMB actually intended for it to be carried that way for extended periods.

The point is, the Army only authorized conditions 1 and 3, never two.

 

[1911Tuner]

Points

Quote:

>The point is, the Army only authorized conditions 1 and 3, never two.<
*********************

Yep...and the other one is that, most of us who could score one...issued or scrounged...topped off the mag and lowered the hammer on a hot chamber.
If things began to look a little dicey, the hammer was quietly thumbed back and the safety engaged. If and when it stood down, the hammer was lowered again, 'cause Eye Corps was a longass way from home.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yep...and the other one is that, most of us who could score one...issued or scrounged...topped off the mag and lowered the hammer on a hot chamber.

Troops do a lot of unauthorized things -- I was just reading "The Last Parallel," an account of the Korean War by a Marine named Martin Russ. Russ tells about how he took the bipod and flash hider off his BAR and threw them away -- then after a night firefight realized what a mistake THAT was.

When were you in 3rd Mar Div? As you know, that is one of the two combined Army-Marine divisions in US history. I was in the Army brigade OPCON to 2rd Mar Div in '68 and '69.

 

[1911Tuner]

Grunts'n'Jarheads

'Fraid you were there and gone before I hit the airspace, Vern. I was in the middle of things when the Marines were standin' down and comin' home, so I had many homes in many places...and never one to call my own, in-country.
They were "officially" home for good in '70, but not all of'em...as you probably know. In the words of Forrest Gump: "And that's all I have to say about that."

On the topic...Yep. Many did. Sometimes the things they did wasn't for the best, and sometimes it worked out pretty well. Hammers have been lowered on hot chambers for 90-odd years though...and will likely continue to be for as long as the 1911 is around. Statistically, the incidence of AD/UDs has probably been no higher than when handling the gun in any other mode...except by the experts and highly experienced...and possibly lower,
because it's a violation of the Finger/Trigger rule, and folks tend to be extra-careful and when handlin' rattlesnakes. How many have we heard of who let one go because they forgot to reapply the safety and get their finger off the go button when reholstering after a shooting or even a tense stand-down.
It happens. (It's a gun...It's NOT safe.)

Happily...we hear more and more of guys who are comfortable carrying cocked and locked, and do so rather than play with the hammer. For others...it's still an option as long as they are aware of the possibility of goin' fumble-thumbed and losin' a toe...or worse. Since it's a good bet that it will be done somewhere by SOME-body, every day of the year...it makes sense to study it and experiment until the individual discovers the safest possible way to do it, and practice it until it's second nature.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Happily...we hear more and more of guys who are comfortable carrying cocked and locked, and do so rather than play with the hammer.

That's the whole crux of Condition 2 -- some people THINK Condition 1 is "dangerous."

I once had a guy I was hunting with tell me carrying my M1911 on Condition 1 was dangerous. When I pointed out that the Ruger MKII .22 automatic he was carrying was ALSO in Condition 1, he wouldn't believe me!

 

[45crittergitter]

Reply to Brickeyee's post (#24)

Excerpted from GUNS magazine article by Massad Ayoob, August, 2005, page 26:

“My spies at Colt tell me, the firm did careful studies on just what it took to cause a Government Model to go off if struck or dropped. The results of that study were never released, but we can determine what they were from (sic) because in a few years, Colt had adopted their Series 80 device.”

“As time went on, custom gunsmiths discovered that the combination of an extra heavy-duty firing pin spring and a light titanium firing pin was enough to keep ‘inertia discharge’ from occurring. Of our busiest half dozen manufacturers of 1911 pistols today, all (emphasis mine) take one or the other of these approaches.”

“The smaller firms that make the true prestige 1911s have gone in the same direction. Ed Brown installs the titanium firing pin with the heavy spring. So does Bill Wilson, after his tests showed that with steel pin, regular spring, and no lock, a 1911 could go off if dropped from as little as three feet. (Again, emphasis mine.) Dave Lauck…. went the Series 80 route for the same reason.”

“’Dropped gun discharges’ don’t happen every day with the 1911. But they’ve happened often enough to alarm most of the companies that manufacture these guns.”

 

[Mute]

I don't believe that report from Ayoob is completely accurate. Most of the 1911 manufacturers that don't use FPS only combine titanium firing pins with heavier springs just to ensure passage of the stupid-ass drop test here in Kali. Outside of the state, I believe both Brown and Wilson continue to use steel firing pins.

I'm sure that 1911's going off from being dropped has occured, though I really dobut the frequency is high enough to warrant a FPS. Like I said, most 1911 makers have been going the non-FPS route even after Colt went with the Series 80 and had done so for quite a long time until the drop test nonsense appeared on the horizon. If the frequency was as high as suggested in that article, I'm pretty sure everyone would have switched to the FPS or titanium firing pin a long time ago.