Cocked/locked vs Hammer Down

[saemetric]

I have a newer Colt .38 Super 1911. My question is, with the Series 80 design, is it Ok to carry it with hammer down on loaded chamber versus cocked and safety on. If dropped, can either fire? Say the safety was released in the fall, would not the hammer being cocked be more dangerous. Or can the firing pin inertia cause either method to fire.
Colt literature says never to carry with loaded chamber.
Bruce

 

[Quiet]

My $0.02.
The 1911 & BHP should always be carried cocked & locked, just how JMB intended.

 

[Treo]

This question comes up over & over again you're going to get a LOT of opinions ( opinions are like booties every one has one and they all stink). Here's mine, if you're ever in a real SD situation you aren't going to have time to rack the slide. When I carry my 1911 I carry condition one W/ a retaining strap between the firing pin. I'm not an expert I'm not a mall ninja I haven't been in a thousand gun fight that's just how I feel comfortable carrying a 1911.

 

[rcmodel]

Loaded, Cocked & Locked is safe.
(And the way John B. intended for it to be carried.)

Loaded, Hammer all the way down against the slide is safe.
(If you don't have an ND letting the hammer down or re-cocking it!)

The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin.
It is shorter then the hole through the slide.
It cannot contact the primer with the hammer all the way down, and there is not enough room for it to get a running start.

Loaded, on half-cock (pre- Series 80) is NOT safe under any circumstances.


rcmodel

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually that wasn't what JMB intended...

He fought against both the grip safety and safety lock (manual safety) but in both cases the Army insisted on them against his recomendations. The safety lock wasn't added until late 1910, and the pistol was adopted during the spring of 1911.

And for generations folks that carried the 1911 pistol often did so with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. This wasn't considered to be wrong until Jeff Cooper came along and said so. Now of course it's a mortal sin...

But anyway, yes, if you chose to you can carry the Series 80 pistol with the hammer down on a loaded chamber the firing pin will remain blocked so long as you don't touch the trigger.

It will come as an absolute shock, but the Old Fuff was known to occasionally carry in this condition before the Series 80 guns arrived.

Of course he wouldn't do that now...

 

[bakert]

Colt literature says never to carry with loaded chamber

I think most gun makers put this bit of advice in their literature as a CYA measure. I usually carry a SA/DA auto and am fairly new to the 1911 and have been just a bit nervous about carrying cocked and locked but getting more used to it now. Every one of the experts, including the late Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor and others stated cocked and locked is the only way to carry one safely with a rd chambered. A self defense gun with an empty chamber can be damn near useless in a situation where it's needed quickly!!

 

[DougDubya]

Actually that wasn't what JMB intended...

He fought against both the grip safety and safety lock (manual safety) but in both cases the Army insisted on them against his recomendations. The safety lock wasn't added until late 1910, and the pistol was adopted during the spring of 1911.

Not only that, but JMB intended the GP-35 to have a trigger/hammer system that was striker fired - ie:Glock setup. After Browning died, Saive added the hammer and thumb safety of the 1911 series.

Still, if locked and cocked isn't your cuppa, go with the LDA from Para Ordnance.

 

[wally]

There is a very safe way to lower the hammer on a live round:

Grip the gun normally, finger off the trigger and chamber a round.

Lay your off hand thumb across the cocked hammer between the face and the slide.

Push the hammer a bit with the off hand thumb to take control of the spring pressure and pull the trigger -- the hammer won't go anywhere since your thumb is holding it and is between it and the firing pin.

Slowly move your thumb up the back of the slide, the hammer will follow until its softly up against the back of the slide.

Do it a few times with an empty gun to get the hang of it. There is nothing to slip since you are not holding the hammer, only interfering with its fall so it goes down slow and controlled.

Thumb cocking on the draw as the gun comes on target was the norm with cap and ball and other SA revolvers, the 1911 hammer spur design is very much like any SA revolver of the era.


When I carry my Kimber Ultra Carry, its cocked and locked, but you do have the option.

--wally.

 

[rcmodel]

But, most 1911's coming down the pike now have ring hammers and beaver-tail safety's.

Thumb cocking one of them quickly is an exercise in frustration for most folks.


rcmodel

 

[Old Fuff]

True, but people that do such dumb things shouldn't be allowed to have guns anyway...

 

[DJW]

One way around this endless debate is the CZ75B. With this model the operator can carry chambered with hammer down safely and just take advantage of the double action capability. Yes, if you don't practice, the first round may impact slightly lower than the rest fired single action. Still, seems like a good comrpomise to me. Yes, only available in .40 and 9mm so the .45 option is gone. Have always considered it to be the "improved" Browning High Power.
DJW

 

[ezypikns]

I agree.

Loaded, Cocked & Locked is safe.

I do carry mine in a Milt Sparks Summer Special though. It's got a flap on the left side of the holster to keep from accidentaly sweeping off the safety. Many quality holsters have this feature and I'm more comfotable with it myself. Personal preference.

 

[1911Tuner]

Don't know where the notion came from that Browning intended any particular mode of carry. His intent was more likely to give the user a choice.

The hammer has checkering or serrations for a reason...just like the slidestop.

People have been decocking single-action firearms for a couple hundred years, and the 1911 is included in that lineup. Why is it suddenly so dangerous to manually decock a 1911? It can be done in complete safety. Of course that assumes that the user exercises caution and patience. The way to do it is to get control of the hammer before you pull the trigger...not during or after.

The old, wide-spur hammers were designed to make this easier and safer via the overhand thumb and finger "pinch" method. The square corners provide a near slip-proof purchase unless you're extremely careless. The narrowing of the original hammer negates a lot of that advantage, but it can still be done safely...or at least as safely as handling a loaded gun can be.

Whenever something is changed...something is usually lost in the translation. This is just such an example.

Thumb-cocking a 1911 pistol in condition 2 is also much faster and easier than you'd imagine...but not after you draw the gun. Cock it while it's still in the holster, as your hand begins to aquire it. With a little practice, you'd be surprised how fast and smooth it is, and it doesn't yield a lot of speed to cocked and locked from an open-topped holster. Just don't go yankin' on the trigger until it's clear, or your friends will be callin' you "Limpy."

If you cock a double-action revolver and the opportunity for the shot is lost...what do you do?

If you lose the shot at a whitetail buck with a '94 Winchester or 336 marlin...what do you do?

Single-action revovler. What do you do?

You carefully lower the hammer. So, I have to ask...what is the difference?

 

[Treo]

DJW Forgot The 97b

When DJW suggested that you settle the dispute in favor of a CZ product ( I'm picturing the 1911 buffs gathering firewood to burn the heratic at the stake). He neglected to mention that CZ does infact market .45 ACP, the 97B same design as a 75B just in .45 you might want to check it out

 

[DennisE]

C&L if you want to avoid getting shot while you drop the hammer or while you're cocking it in harms way. Dennis

 

[Slamfire]

I have a newer Colt .38 Super 1911. My question is, with the Series 80 design, is it Ok to carry it with hammer down on loaded chamber versus cocked and safety on

I don't think this issue was addressed, but the series 80 colt has a firing pin lock. This safety device, added in the series 80 pistols, means the firing pin cannot go forward unless the trigger is pulled.

I have mixed feeling about this device as I have had the plunger drop down when the slide was cycling and jam the pistol. While this is very infrequent, only happened to me once, it is a failure mode that I wish were not there.

However, the classic series 70 action, without the firing pin lock, has killed any number of people in the past. It is hard to believe, but the M1911 dropped from enough height on a hard surface, has discharged the round in the chamber.

Slamfire deniers won’t believe such a thing, but that spring loaded free floating firing pin has hit primers with enough force to discharge the weapon. And that is why Colt put a firing pin block in the series 80.

And why my early Kimber Custom Classic is one of the few without such a device. Later, Kimber also added a firing pin block.

Still firing pin block or not, you have to hold the trigger back to let the hammer down. And folks have had accidental discharges when the hammer slipped under their thumb.

Enough accidents of the first or the second type have happened that the military and LEO have gone from single action pistols to double action, and now the final stage is double action only.

Overall, it is better to leave the hammer back and put on the safety when you have a round in the chamber.

If your primary weapon is a revolver, you won't have any of these problems.

 

[1911Tuner]

It is hard to believe, but the M1911 dropped from enough height on a hard surface, has discharged the round in the chamber.

Yeah. From about 10 feet, straight down on the muzzle.

Slamfire deniers won’t believe such a thing, but that spring loaded free floating firing pin has hit primers with enough force to discharge the weapon.

Well...I won't deny that anything is possible...but I've never known of it to happen...and I've had my hands in a helluva lotta 1911 pistols over the course of nearly 44 years.

Of course...Keeping a pistol drop safe depends on a few things like properly maintaining the weapon, and installing a new firing pin spring every 10,000 rounds or so. Springs do wear out with use.
Correct firing pin length is also a must.

And folks have had accidental discharges when the hammer slipped under their thumb.

People also cut themselves with pocket knives and chain saws. One must exercise a measure of caution whenever handling potentially dangerous devices.

And that is why Colt put a firing pin block in the series 80.

No...Colt introduced that in order to make the pistol more drop safe from a height of 10 feet straight down onto concrete. Slam-firing was never a problem. If it were, the AR15/M16 rifles would go full-auto every time the trigger is pulled.

 

[saemetric]

Slamfire- Thanks, this is the main info I was looking for-"the firing pin cannot move forward unless trigger is pulled" Therefore it seems I can carry C&L or hammer down on live round w/o worry on a Series 80 Colt.

 

[1911Tuner]

Therefore it seems I can carry C&L or hammer down on live round w/o worry on a Series 80 Colt.

Yes...as is your choice. Be aware that the Series 80 system is bypassed by pulling the trigger. Be careful when lowering the hammer for Condition 2 carry, and be sure that you have an adequate bullet trap and you'll be fine.

Be also aware that sometimes Series 80-equipped guns don't always function as intended, and the firing pin block doesn't disengage when the trigger is pulled. If that happens, you may get a click when you need a bang.

Finally...Slam-firing from the slide going to battery is a .000001% event at most...if it's ever happend in a gun that was mechanically sound. If the gun fires when it goes to battery, there's something amiss somewhere within the fire control group.

 

[tipoc]

As folks have pointed out Browning, Colt engineers and the military designed the 1911 so that it could be carried 3 ways. All three were used.

Largely due to the influence of Jeff Cooper Condition one has become popular. There is good reason for this. It's safe and in a good holster is very fast and safe to the first shot. Good holsters for the 1911 designed for C&L carry and concealed C&L carry were pretty much unknown 2-3 decades back. No one made them cuz C&L carry was not as widely used as now.

Anyways I prefer C&L in a good rig. But there are times when I don't or haven't had the option but to "carry" in a paper sack in a shoulder bag, in a overcoat pocket, tied to a string down the back of my pants, etc. So I've carried hammer down on a live round. If you have time to get the piece out of a paper bag in a shoulder bag, you have time to thumb cock it.

I've also practiced a good deal over the years lowering a hammer on a live round (with an empty gun) and safely thumb cocking. If you need to do this make sure your piece is set up for it. All mine are, hammers designed for it, etc.

The 1911 is a versatile gun. Use it safely.



tipoc

 

[Treo]

How ever you choose to carry I would recomend ( there goes that opinion thing again) carrying the same way every time you carry. If you get into the habit of carrying the gun one way then you'll be in the habit of getting the gun into action one way. the above how ever is strictly my opinion

 

[crazed_ss]

I physically cant cock my 1911 with just my right thumb

 

[1911Tuner]

I physically cant cock my 1911 with just my right thumb

Is it a physical problem...like arthritis..or is it a matter of leverage?

If you know how, you can cock it pretty easily.

 

[Onmilo]

John Browning did intend his designs to be carried hammer down/chamber empty and the Military did insist on the abillty to carry the firearm chamber loaded, hammer cocked, thumb safety engaged.
Either way are the safest ways to carry a 1903/1908/1911 pistol.

The safest AND fastest is still, and always will be, condition one.

 

[Slamfire]

Well...I won't deny that anything is possible...but I've never known of it to happen...and I've had my hands in a helluva lotta 1911 pistols over the course of nearly 44 years.

You know I am repeating a warning that I have heard since time immemorial. I did a web search and found plenty of discussion on this topic, but no one thread came up with a conclusive drop fire. I did find one thread where a guy did his own drop test without a slamfire.

However there are limitations to the web and to individual experiences. Folks don’t like to admit to accidents, and if you were to divide my lifetime experiences by the sum of human experiences, the quotient would close to zero.

What we lack are access to accident databases. I am certain the Army had them on the M1911. The reason I believe this is I stumbled on a Navy firearm accident database, with descriptions. I was totally amazed by how many Naval personnel had shot themselves with the new Beretta, and how often. There was a lot of stupid stuff such as Sailors playing fast draw, drinking games, and pointing “unloaded” guns at fellow Sailors and pulling the trigger. Bang!

None of the services has the slightest interest in making accident databases available to the public (rule two applies: Minimize scandal), and none of the commercial manufactures of M1911 who get reports on their weapons are going to put that information out there for lawyers to examine. After all there are law firms who specialize in suing individual manufacturers.

Just as the Firestone 500 failures were real, (but I would not have known the frequency if the databases were not made public), I am confident that accidental drop discharges have happened; I have read the occasional gunwriter confirmation over the decades, and firearms manufacturers would not be putting these safety devices in their pistols if the probability and frequency were zero.

I have complained to several about how little I liked their firing pin blocks, and have been told politely, that is something they have to do because of product liability. And they won’t elaborate beyond that.