Cocked/locked vs Hammer Down

[DougDubya]

With a revolver, you have two controls to deal with -- a trigger and a hammer. With an M1911, you have three -- trigger, hammer and grip safety. That greatly increases the danger of a Negligent Discharge -- and that's why Ahern puts a thumb between hammer and firing pin.

But very few revolvers have both grip safety and thumb safety lock -- so why go through all those gyrations to make safe? Just engage the safety lock and holster the gun.

Which is why I said - I want my ambi safety on my 1911 (preferably, Commander length). Just because it can be done one way doesn't mean it really should.

I also get a kick out of those saying "get a CZ-75" if you want to carry it hammer down - except for the CZ-75 BD, the PCR and the P.01, you have to lower the hammer under manual control rather than a firing-pin negating decocker. In other words, it's just as dangerous to decock, and the only advantage is the long trigger pull to get the '75 live.

 

[tipoc]

Remember when you couldn't get that BB gun cuz "You'll shoot your eye out kid!"

I believe that I've had to carry a 1911 in a paper sack inside of some other bag more than I've ever carried one on a holster on my hip. I did it for 3 years straight once, every day, up to 12 hours a day. Couldn't wear a holster. I practiced cocking and decocking about every day. You get the piece out and cock while doing that and either put it on safe or use it. I didn't shoot my eye out or drop the hammer causing the slide to come back and break my thumb, etc.

You don't see many complaints about lowering the hammer on a CZ75, 97, etc. Folks have been thumb cocking the Walther P38 since, well 38. Law enforcement and the military switched to da decockers in an effort to avoid folks shooting their toes off. Hasn't worked all that well.

I dislike an external manual decocker. I'd rather trust my own thumb than a piece of steel and a spring to safely lower a hammer.

And no matter how many times I say it some folks don't hear it I'll say it again. C&L is a very good way to carry a 1911 in a good rig for the purpose and I use it. But it's not always the best way in all situations. So, use the versatility of the weapon if and when you can or care to. Watch yourself and do it safely. If you can't stay away from double barreled shot guns with exposed hammers and older 1897 trench guns cuz you'll shoot your eye out kid!

tipoc

 

[1911Tuner]

tipoc understands.

Anybody remember the old M92 Berettas? Double-action 9mm autopistols with the safety mounted on the frame, and no decocker? Since it was assumed that the pistol offered the option of cocked and locked...as per the Browning-type safety...or Condition 2...and the only way of lowering the hammer was with the thumb...one might wonder why there was no cry of
"Danger Will Robinson!" associated with the Beretta.

Simple. Because in those days, Col. Cooper hadn't convinced everybody to carry in C-1, and most people who carried the big Colt carried it in C-2...and had been doing so for decades before Cooper burst upon the scene with his new doctrine.

I'd tend to think that if it had been all that hazardous to manually lower the hammer, we'd have multiple thousands of injury and death reports to draw from for these silly arguments.

It's been suggested...and rather condescendingly, I might add...that if one can't master the 1911's manual of arms, or feels uncomfortable with Cocked and Locked...that they should carry a revolver.

I'd venture to say that, if one doesn't possess the coodination and dexterity to control a hammer, maybe he should carry a slingshot...except he might put his eye out with it.

 

[tipoc]

The Army wanted it carried with the chamber empty. Once a round was chambered, the gun was to be carried cocked-and-locked. Hammer down on a live round was never authorized.

This is true, but it was often carried condition 2 by GIs during the big wars. Just as some carried it, unwisely I think, on the half cock notch.

It was also against military regs for a soldier to cut the flap off his holster, but that was done too.

tipoc

 

[sm]

I'm with 1911 Tuner and Old Fuff .

Life was simpler before we made it difficult.

Used to be there was more than one way of doing things, and now we had The way or nothing else.
Used to be guns and everything else was made right from the get-go, now we have enhancements and improvements which means the domino theory ...'this' changes 'that' which changes something else and after all these enhancements and improvements...

Oh well, folks used to actually carry and shoot guns too...

*wink*

Steve

 

[DougDubya]

Tipoc and 1911Tuner SPEAK THE TRUTH!

And frankly, this is the kind of thing that rolls in my head - if I were to wake up in 1932 and needed a serious fighting handgun, I'd be packing a Colt 1911 in Condition 2 myself. Granted, I'd have probably been brow beaten into being right-hand dominant back then, but, they couldn't get me to change in 1976, they'd have a heck of a time in 1932.

I also made use of this in a small side thread of a crime story I've been writing. The surviving lover of a criminal that the story's hero is posing as gave him a mil-spec 1911. The hero, a southpaw like me, carries it Condition 2, but only because he's trained to handle it that way.

 

[1911Tuner]

Doug...I had a southpaw bud once who carried his in C-1 on his right hip. He'd draw the gun and thumb off the safety...and transfer it to his left hand.
I showed him the way to cock the gun in the leather as he closed his hand on it. He tried it a few times, and he never looked back.

Another guy I know practiced wiping off the safety with his index finger as he drew, and he was fast with it. I showed him "The Method" and he now carries
in C-2.

Demonstrations available. Say when. We'll leave the light in for ya.

 

[DougDubya]

I've practiced the index finger snap, I've practiced north-to-south transfer, and I've practiced Condition 2.

If it's a fancy sweet 1911 with ambis, then I'll use the safety.

If it's the 1911 as our armed forces used for yonks, then I'm fairly good to go with Condition 2 and safe decocking.

What can I say? I like options.