1911 Reliability, Accuracy, Tuning

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"Vertical Impact Surface. Remove the slide, look down the dust cover with the lens (as if you were pointing the bottom of the pistol at the camera). You have a Colt so there should be a circular cut out topped with a bowtie shaped surface. This is where the barrel feet make contact with the frame and from your pictures it appears as though it's been battered. Might want to snap a pic of those feet as well, side and back (chamber side) and throw in a pic of the slide stop pin too. "


I'm just too new to this I guess.... is there a "breakdown" image on the internet that you know of, which will show me what these parts are? Thanks for trying to point me in the right direction.... taking the photos is easy. Identifying which photos to take is a lot more difficult for me. I'm learning though.....

(I did send a PM to "1911Tuner". Thanks for that as well.)
 
The slide stop pin, if I am under the correct assumption, is the pin you remove to take off the slide? The barrel feet should be the lugs that protrude from the bottom of the barrel, where the link is at, close to the breech end.

Barrel lugs

This image has the part where it will come in contact with the VIS, if you can take a few more of the lugs from various angles, especially of the bottom of the lugs I think that is what Skyler is looking for.
 
It looks like you have barrel bump too based on the photo of the lower barrel lugs (look directly above barrel link pin). It's hard to see if both lugs are crashing into the slide stop pin, but barrel bump can adversely affect reliability and it's going to get worse as your round count increases. Also, you can see where the rear of the lower barrel lugs and the underside of the barrel are making hard contact with the frame and causing the damage that you've observed. This is one rough looking Colt. :uhoh: Still, if it were mine, I'd fit a new bushing, test fire it to see if accuracy has improved, and then decide if it's worth working on or sending out.

attachment.jpg
 
I'd get a new barrel and bushing and try that. That barrel looks out of spec. Get a barrel and bushing mated to each other.
 
Thanks. I just got off the phone with a service tech at Colt. He agreed that if I ordered a new bushing and barrel, that would be a good start - and if I want, I can always ship them the gun for repairs and custom fitting, etc. later. I will get a new Slide Stop at the same time, as mine looks pretty worn out to me. Do you guys think this would be reasonable?

On the other hand, if you guys feel this gun is too far gone to ever make "better", maybe I should just leave it as-is...... but my goal is only to make it shoot "better" for target shooting. My gut feeling is that with all the parts wobbling all over the place, there is no way it could ever shoot properly the way it is now. As I see things, the limit for how well I can shoot needs to be me, not the gun. :)



Also, when I asked him about a new replacement spring, and showed him the two I was confused about, "Recoil Spring" SP51015, and "Mainspring" SP50158 (both had almost identical photos) he told me the "Mainspring" shown on their website was the wrong photo - they'll get it corrected. The part number I posted earlier is incorrect - it was based on an incorrect website photo.
 
If the frame is not out of spec it should be fine with a little loving. I believe a barrel and bushing is the place to start and go from there. It is still a Colt and has value. It's worth a "shot", IMO.
 
I had hoped that a pro would chime in here as seeing a problem is not as helpful as knowing what the root problem is. My opinion would be short on both counts but were it mine I would pack it off to the smith. Every $20 part may indeed add to its accuracy or keep it running for now but a competent professional can evaluate the pistol as a whole, allowing you to know what a final bill might be.

For example, having EGW install a ramp insert and replace the bushing might run $250 with shipping.

If the barrel fitment is indeed an issue based on the peening and single-sided damage to the starboard barrel foot, a new barrel and fitting may run $200 if you didn't choose a match barrel. If accuracy is the goal however you could easily budget $350.

At $600 you may be home free or still need additional small parts like a $40 slide stop. A new pistol can be had at that price, though not necessarily a more accurate one. A trade may allow for an all round easier solution in regards to money but then again, I would be hesitant to stamp my approval on any plan without a more qualified opinion.

All the above really means is where is Tuner?!
 
Holy Cow, some of your pics give me the willies.
I don't know when that particular 1911 was produced, but I see so many machine tool marks that I think a guy in a cave in Pakistan with a hand file could have built better parts.

I do not claim to be a 1911 expert, but I have owned about 25 of them over the last 25 or so years. I have never seen one with the machine tool marks on the slide/frame interface surfaces, the underside of the slide or the pin portion of the slide stop. The wear on the upper portion of the VIS is also new to me.

I don't think you need to spend $3000 to get a good 1911, but IMHO, yours is not a good starting point. Take a look at a used $800 S&W and you will not see that level of machining. Hell, look at a $400 RIA and you won't see that level of machining.

I am subscribing, because I want to see what the real 1911 guys have to say about this.
 
I don't think that your slide/frame/barrel/bushing fit is the biggest issue. I'll bet that the trigger quality is the main culprit. Think about it, if you are wiggling 0.027 in a 5 inch barrel, then if you extend that out to 50 inches, it's 0.27" and at 500 inches (right around 15yd) it's 2.7"

Granted they both need to be fixed, and I would be tempted to send the whole thing in to Colt and let them get everything back in spec. You probably don't need a Bullseye-quality accuracy job, but I think that even range guns should have good triggers, so I'd definitely ask for a trigger job while it's there.

-J.
 
jr_roosa said:
I don't think that your slide/frame/barrel/bushing fit is the biggest issue. I'll bet that the trigger quality is the main culprit. Think about it, if you are wiggling 0.027 in a 5 inch barrel, then if you extend that out to 50 inches, it's 0.27" and at 500 inches (right around 15yd) it's 2.7"
Click to expand...

And you don't see 2.7 inches of error which can jump in any old direction at 15 yards as being cause for concern? :eek:

If it were me that wanted to make this gun shoot decently well I'd say that it would be worth taking into a smith that knows their 1911's to have it surveyed for what parts to get. Obviously the bushing needs to be chucked and replaced. But it would be good to have the nose of the slide measured to make sure that a new bushing will fit or to ensure you order the correct oversize bushing that is larger where it fits the slide as well as smaller where it fits the barrel. It's worth noting that some better target grade guns need a bushing wrench due to having a slightly tight interference fit for a no play fit.

There's also some corrective action needed on your frame to correct the barrel bumping. That may or may not involve a different length link so the barrel locks up in the slide a touch before the barrel lugs ram the frame in that area. I'm not a 1911 expert by any means but from my reading of the Kunnhausen book this seemed to be the case when fitting the link and link pin. Someone that knows more can correct me on this aspect if I'm out to lunch.

A survey by someone that knows their stuff will cost you but you'll walk out of the shop knowing what parts are salvagable and which are toast and with a shopping list of parts with a known cost. You'll also get an honest opinion of wether or not the frame and slide are going to perform up to your expectations even with the new parts or if this is a gun which is best used for up close and personal defense use where absolute accuracy doesn't matter so much as having it go BANG! every time.
 
All of those are excellent ideas - I plan to go to a local range either on Monday, or the following week, and ask the gunsmith there what his opinion might be about this gun.

To be practical, if it would cost $250 to $300 to make it shoot "better", I would do so. If it would cost $800 I'd be better off buying a new gun.



I guess I ought to clarify one thing - I don't need to get the gun worked on to the point where it shoots one inch groups at 15 yards if the best I can do is two inch groups. The Wilson is supposed to be as good as it gets, and you can see how well I did with each of them here:

attachment.jpg


I've already got the Colt; I'd like to learn how to shoot it better, and eventually get a better gun. I doubt if any of you would be satisfied with the groupings I got with the Wilson, so I need to get in a lot of practice.


I wrote it in my 'blog' on Starting Grid, but maybe I didn't make it clear in this forum. The gun didn't just suddenly start getting worse - when I first used it 20 or so years ago, I don't think it was any better than it is today.

Also, I don't understand why the machining marks look the way they do - it started with a relative, who bought it new in the early 1980's. I got it from him around 1990, and sold it back to him two years ago. Now I've bought it back. Nobody that I know of has "worked on it", but at the same time, I don't think either of us knew how to care for it properly. The things I'm learning now are things I knew nothing about way back when.

(One silly question I'd like to ask.... I know why replacing the bushing and barrel will make the gun shoot better. However, I don't see how/why getting the trigger worked on will make that much of a difference. I'm guessing a lighter, smoother trigger will make it less likely to "jerk the gun" when firing it, but that seems very minor compared with parts that are moving around when they should be controlled. )




The photos were taken with a good DSLR with macro lens, camera on tripod, and ISO speed bumped up to around 4,000 so I could close the lens down to get decent depth of field. However bad the photos look here in the small on-screen images, they look far, FAR worse at full size. When I see the images at their full image size, I start to think the whole gun is junk. :-( Seeing the image at full resolution is like examining the parts with a magnifier.
 
I wouldn't beat yourself up over accuracy just yet. The targets with the Wilson display grouping which is rather good for someone who doesn't shoot frequently. They also demonstrate that you are at present capable of more accuracy than your Colt.

If you've got the time between now and your range session a thorough cleaning might help. Start with the barrel using a lead solvent. Follow up with a copper solvent then have a look with a good light. Use a cleaner (Gunscrubber or CLP) on the rest. Wipe it dry then oil the rails, the outside of the barrel and bushing.

Don't worry about machining marks, they're common enough for the vintage. CNC machining has made them much less common but they won't hurt a thing.
 
mikemyers said:
I know it's not the "best" answer, but can anyone give me a reason why I shouldn't just call Colt tomorrow, and order:
a) barrel bushing
b) barrel
c) spring
d) slide stop
Click to expand...

You can spend your own money any way you want, and if it were my pistol, I'd definitely risk a couple of hundred dollars and a little DIY. Did you check MidwayUSA? You can buy those parts from Midway for around $150 and I'd be surprised if Colt is cheaper.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=184349

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=460781

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=377420

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=372314
 
Because many smiths will give you a free estimate while you wait. I'd still order the bushing from EGW and I'd still plan on having the barrel fitted by a smith if that's the route you choose.

Bigger reason, it may just continue to chew things up, especially if you just "drop" the barrel in or it may not function at all.
 
A barrel is pretty much a barrel these days ... Colt, Kart, SA, Bartsto, Storm Lake ... same:same in general - the accuracy is in the fitting so you want it done by someone who knows what they're doing. I'm not a fan of "semi-drop-ins" or complete drop-in solutions for that matter - if you're going to install a new barrel, you should put your $$ into the skills of the person installing it.

As I said above, the $22 EGW busing that you can install yourself after a few careful measurements is the best bang for the buck and would probably help you determine whether you in fact need a new barrel.
/B
 
1858, I went and looked at "MidwayUSA". While the page implies you should use genuine Colt parts, noplace that I looked did it state that the parts they sell actually ARE genuine Colt parts. Instead I found where some fitting is required (as you noted, DIY). I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that if I just bought a new part from Colt, it would drop into my own gun with zero fitting required. Do you know if these are genuine Colt parts?

Skylerbone, in Michigan, it was easy to find a good gunsmith. I'm not sure about Miami - I've only found one so far, who works at the range I usually go to. Maybe I can see him tomorrow or a week from tomorrow.


Also, you noted "it may continue to chew things up, especially if you just "drop" the barrel in, or it may not function at all." I wish I had a way of knowing if the barrel was chewing up the rest of the gun, or vice versa.


Last, can you please elaborate on what you meant by "having EGW install a ramp insert ". Is this a way to correct the worn part of the frame?
 
mikemyers said:
1858, I went and looked at "MidwayUSA". While the page implies you should use genuine Colt parts, noplace that I looked did it state that the parts they sell actually ARE genuine Colt parts. Instead I found where some fitting is required (as you noted, DIY). I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that if I just bought a new part from Colt, it would drop into my own gun with zero fitting required. Do you know if these are genuine Colt parts?
Click to expand...

The Colt parts sold by Midway are genuine Colt parts but there's no guarantee that a barrel from the Colt factory will drop right in. Even if Colt is producing barrels built to spec, it's possible that your slide is out of spec. You won't know until you try to fit the barrel. Best case scenario is that it's a very good fit. Worst case scenario is that it's a bad fit and you have to carefully fit it. Ed Brown provided instructions with the barrel I installed in my Kimber TEII.

Admittedly, I've only fit one barrel thus far, but it turned out so good that I feel confident to try it again and will do just that with a Wilson Combat barrel in my Raptor. After installing the Ed Brown barrel, accuracy is outstanding, witness marks on the slide stop and lower barrel lugs show that the barrel is locking up solid, there's no barrel bump and no barrel movement at the rear when pushing down on the barrel hood. I've shot over a 1,000 rounds in matches since installing the barrel without a single failure or problem of any kind. The barrel is considerably more accurate than the factory barrel, and for an unexpected bonus, the pistol is now 100% reliable with 185gr LSWC reloads. I think it was a fairly easy upgrade due to the Kimber frame/slide, and the Ed Brown barrel, all being built to spec. Installing a spec barrel in an out of spec slide will be far more challenging I'm sure.

As for barrel fitting, if you do enough reading, you'll find that gunsmiths have their own ideas as to how something should be. For example, Dave Severns likes his barrels fit a certain way, and yet many top 1911 manufactures don't fit their barrels the way he likes it.
 
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mikemyers said:
I know it's not the "best" answer, but can anyone give me a reason why I shouldn't just call Colt tomorrow, and order:
a) barrel bushing
b) barrel
c) spring
d) slide stop
Click to expand...
As 1858 said, you are free to spend your money however you like. However it sure seems like you are applying bandages to a symptom when you don't yet know the cause of the problem. Judging by your lack of familiarity with the 1911 action, I think a safer route would be to seek professional help

I'd be very concerned about some of the damage I'm seeing in your pictures, to the extend that I know it is beyond my experience. If it were my gun, I'd take it to a knowledgeable 1911 pistolsmith...as opposed to just any gunsmith...to determine what part of the timing of the action is causing the problem
 
mikemyers said:
However, I don't see how/why getting the trigger worked on will make that much of a difference. I'm guessing a lighter, smoother trigger will make it less likely to "jerk the gun" when firing it.
Click to expand...
Actually a lighter trigger causes as many trigger flinches as it helps to avoid...however a smooth trigger is easier to shoot as you are not fighting the start-n-stops that grit causes.

The reason a tuned trigger is important to better shooting is that trigger management is the cornerstone of all accurate handgun shooting. Grip and sight alignment run a poor second to proper trigger management. Most people cannot even shoot to the potential of less well fitted guns, because they can not consistently press the trigger correctly.

At 15 yards, that Wilson should be putting shots on top of each other and even a very rough Colt should keep all it's shots within a 3" cluster. I just had a student this last Saturday that picked up a strange gun, to him (he forgot the mags for his gun), with a less than satisfactory trigger, and I was able to shrink his cluster at 5" to a grouping of just over an inch in a couple of hours.
 
I wouldn't spend the money on a barrel from Colt just to drop it in, that is what they apparently did. The barrel pic is dark and doesn't show the back of the lugs, and the opposite lug, which would tell more. So would a pic of the VIS.

The barrel just behind the lugs appears to be slamming into the frame's barrel bed which coincides with the pic of the frame barrel bed. Could be too large a fillet at the chamber/lug rear interface, but doesn't appear too large from the pic. This would indicate the VIS is back too far, the bed is too high, the link is too short or the barrel lugs are cut too far forward. This is an incorrectly timed pistol.

What looks like barrel bump appears to be one lower lug only. This may be an incorrected fitted hood or poorly cut lugs or misdrilled link pin hole. Colt typically long links their barrels in milspec fashion and that pretty much stops the barrel bump, from what I've seen.

I'd send the gun to Colt under warranty or get a pro to fit a barrel properly as suggested by others in the thread. This may be a job where both the barrel and frame need fitting.
 
"Judging by your lack of familiarity with the 1911 action, I think a safer route would be to seek professional help" ..........wow, this is SO true. It would be pretty safe to say I know nothing about the 1911 action, other than what I can see from the outside. I've got a LOT to learn.



"I'd send the gun to Colt under warranty or get a pro to fit a barrel properly as suggested by others in the thread. This may be a job where both the barrel and frame need fitting." ........it's a 30 year old Colt. It looks beautiful on the outside, but you guys can see what's under the surface. I can't imagine Colt charging me any less than $500 to $800 for what this gun really needs, and if I was about to do that, why not spend $1000 for something much nicer, and new. Then I've got two guns, and the newer one should shoot far better than my own ability.



"At 15 yards, that Wilson should be putting shots on top of each other and even a very rough Colt should keep all it's shots within a 3" cluster." ..........maybe a Wilson "should" do that, but I'm certainly not capable of it, and probably never will be. If I did have a "goal" at 15 yards, it would be a two inch diameter grouping, hand-held. If I ever get that good, maybe then I would try to get better.



The common thread in the advice from all of you seems to be to take it to a good gunsmith and have it evaluated. I will do that.

(If different photos would help, all I need is a little guidance on knowing WHAT to show in the photograph; photography is simple compared to the other things we're discussing.)



..........added later - do any of you know a good training video, that shows all the parts in motion, identifies the parts with their correct name, and shows what is going on inside the gun when it's fired? I tried to find a video like that, but never found anything as detailed as what I'd like to see.


.........added much later - not a video, but a wonderful page on the 1911:
http://www.m1911.org/locking.htm
 
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Mike,

What I would do is call Colt in the morning. Explain what is going on with the pistol tell them you have pictures that can be emailed if needed and see what they say. They may be able to give a quote over the phone or via email and that can help you in deciding if you should go to a qualified gunsmith. I am not sure what Colt's customer service is like but maybe they can do something?
 
Colt wants me to send in the gun for an inspection - photos aren't enough. They can't give me a quote until they see the gun. The tech guy told me he would send me any parts that I want to start out with, and I can always send the gun in later on, along with those parts either installed or separately.

I find it difficult to believe that the Colt gunsmith will fix one thing that is wrong, and let the gun go back to me with other things that need to be done.

Next Tuesday I'll be able to visit a gunsmith, and get some good answers (I hope). Maybe I'll get lucky, and the gunsmith will not only be able to tell me what is wrong, but why the parts wore the way they did.


With everything you guys have seen so far, should I assume that the spring also needs to be replaced? I've been reading that this should be done every so often - I don't know if my spring has ever been changed. (I don't understand why the spring needs to be changed, but I guess that's something I will start doing from now on.)
 
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