Big_R
Member
One question, was this guy blind after being shot in the face? I would think the shot would have penetrated the eyelid/eyeball. Just curious?
Ryan
Ryan
20 gauge birdshot to face and lives - report
- Thread starter DigMe
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Let me get this straight
He took a full load of birdshot directly to the face at close range (albiet not point blank) and he could still see and hear?
Regardless of whether or not birdshot can penetrate the skull, I suspect it could *still* penetrate eyelids, impairing or ruining his vision. He could still walk around, he'd just bump into things. Maybe all the birdshot was in the side of his face, or mouth and jaw. I don't care how well my skull holds up, I don't want dozens of metal pellets to infiltrate my peepers.
Sounds like he's just one lucky @$!@#.
jmm
He took a full load of birdshot directly to the face at close range (albiet not point blank) and he could still see and hear?
Regardless of whether or not birdshot can penetrate the skull, I suspect it could *still* penetrate eyelids, impairing or ruining his vision. He could still walk around, he'd just bump into things. Maybe all the birdshot was in the side of his face, or mouth and jaw. I don't care how well my skull holds up, I don't want dozens of metal pellets to infiltrate my peepers.
Sounds like he's just one lucky @$!@#.
jmm
bogie
Member
I'll guess that he was at a bit of a distance from the shooter. Gave the load time to spread. Plus it was a 20 gauge... Also, it could have been a ricochet? Wasn't there, don't know.
How many #6 (for instance...) pellets are in a 20 gauge shell? I'll bet he didn't have 'em all...
How many #6 (for instance...) pellets are in a 20 gauge shell? I'll bet he didn't have 'em all...
entropy
Member
Onmilo, I had a friend from grade school that attempted suicide after high school graduation. He used a 12 ga. with a 7 1/2 trap load, and had the same result. Blew his face off, but he lived an agonizing two weeks after! 
I have shot many different objects, some living some not, (i.e. snapping turtles, old refrigerators, computers 
, etc.) and found that close range and straight on are the most effective uses for birdshot for HD. I have switched to 0 buck ( got a closeout deal on it at Sportsman' Guide) for HD. Devastating far past any range I will use it at.
I have shot many different objects, some living some not, (i.e. snapping turtles, old refrigerators, computers , etc.) and found that close range and straight on are the most effective uses for birdshot for HD. I have switched to 0 buck ( got a closeout deal on it at Sportsman' Guide) for HD. Devastating far past any range I will use it at. Davo
Member
Wow first post!
Hey Guys! Im glad to be on THR! I am a Paramedic in southern California, and have seen a handfull of shotgun wounds. I am of the opinion that birdshot (size<#5 or so) incapacitates best at only the shortest of ranges; and even then it is NOT consistant enough to use.
Once I had a patient who shot himmself point blank in thigh with wolfs 12g #7 1/2 field load not only was there no exit would, but the shot didn't even fracture the femur! His thigh was very swollen, but the surgeon was fairly sure he would recover.
Conversley, I've also run on a few suicide victims that used remchester field loads not larger than #7 shot, both of which left a massive exit wound to the skull, easily penetrating several layers of bone, and even lodging into the wall/ceiling afterwards. Neither were fun to look at/be around.
Im sure that someone somewhere has died from #9 shot, but somewhere a .22 has killed a bear as well. For the safest bet, use buck or the larger size birdshot if overpenetration is a concern.
Davo
Hey Guys! Im glad to be on THR! I am a Paramedic in southern California, and have seen a handfull of shotgun wounds. I am of the opinion that birdshot (size<#5 or so) incapacitates best at only the shortest of ranges; and even then it is NOT consistant enough to use.
Once I had a patient who shot himmself point blank in thigh with wolfs 12g #7 1/2 field load not only was there no exit would, but the shot didn't even fracture the femur! His thigh was very swollen, but the surgeon was fairly sure he would recover.
Conversley, I've also run on a few suicide victims that used remchester field loads not larger than #7 shot, both of which left a massive exit wound to the skull, easily penetrating several layers of bone, and even lodging into the wall/ceiling afterwards. Neither were fun to look at/be around.
Im sure that someone somewhere has died from #9 shot, but somewhere a .22 has killed a bear as well. For the safest bet, use buck or the larger size birdshot if overpenetration is a concern.
Davo
happy old sailor
Member
all that said and done, im gonna stick with the small shot in my 20 gg housegun. why?? i dont want to kill them. the hassel of death to a human goes on and on for months and your lawyer has a couple payments to make on something expensive. so, if the invader takes the first round of shot, he will not want another six behind it. first shot to the pelvic arera, then as many as necessary to deter further intent. if he/they keep coming the next thing to face is 18 rounds of SXT from the G17. makes a better case to the DA and less gambling on an anti gun jury. that type jury gives me shivers.
i have no qualms about doing a dude in and would not worry about it later. its just the aftermath dealing with the judiciary system. no one would welcome that.
scenario: you do him in, call 911 and here comes fourteen cop cars with bull horns yelling to put down your gun and come out with your hands up. then a football team of cops tackle you to the ground and cuff you behind the back. and there you lay while they search your house, ransacking everything while the coroner takes his time to show up. then they talk on and on, you still on the ground while they take pictures and measurements. then there is a front page picture of a disheveled handcuffed individual who was captured by the authorities after killing this poor man who was just trying to get to his own house in the dark. his mama is sniveling on TV, he was a good boy. story on page three. later a two line retraction on page nineteen. i can really do without this. rather be telling the cops that yes, i shot him and he ran away at a furious pace so he couldnt have been injured too badly and besides, i was using non lethal birdshot.
now if i lived in Detroit i would want a 3" 12 with 000 buck. reckon it all just depends, huh?
i have no qualms about doing a dude in and would not worry about it later. its just the aftermath dealing with the judiciary system. no one would welcome that.
scenario: you do him in, call 911 and here comes fourteen cop cars with bull horns yelling to put down your gun and come out with your hands up. then a football team of cops tackle you to the ground and cuff you behind the back. and there you lay while they search your house, ransacking everything while the coroner takes his time to show up. then they talk on and on, you still on the ground while they take pictures and measurements. then there is a front page picture of a disheveled handcuffed individual who was captured by the authorities after killing this poor man who was just trying to get to his own house in the dark. his mama is sniveling on TV, he was a good boy. story on page three. later a two line retraction on page nineteen. i can really do without this. rather be telling the cops that yes, i shot him and he ran away at a furious pace so he couldnt have been injured too badly and besides, i was using non lethal birdshot.
now if i lived in Detroit i would want a 3" 12 with 000 buck. reckon it all just depends, huh?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. #7-1/2 and #8 loads are too light for rabbits and even squirrels, let alone humans. There's a reason they call it "birdshot".
I've seen rabbits, squirrels, and a porcupine shot at close range with these loads. The results were not impressive. I'm curious if the people that rely on these light loads for self-defense have ever done any small game hunting with birdshot? I think it would change your mind, and real quick.
Also, take a look at this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1212081#post1212081
I've seen rabbits, squirrels, and a porcupine shot at close range with these loads. The results were not impressive. I'm curious if the people that rely on these light loads for self-defense have ever done any small game hunting with birdshot? I think it would change your mind, and real quick.
Also, take a look at this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1212081#post1212081
MICHAEL T
Member
Back in mid 90's bird shot destroyed my 90 Buick Regal , Windows interior fenders radiator ect. 4000+ parts and labor. He did a full walk around 360 degrees with a 12 guage. He also with these charges and others I had pending did almost 10 years in big Hotel Two times we went in front of parole board and stopped parole, he served all his sentance except time they took off for being good.... Needles to say Iam not on his xmas list.
I have some 3 inch #2's laying around I would hesitate to use. The fact is most people don't practice with buckshot and they are a little scared of the recoil. But at 30 feet or so with any kind of choke you can SEE #8 shot hit a steel plate en-mass.
280PLUS
Member
I load mine with #4 turkey loads and I have 5 shots. If the first one don't "deter" a person I say give 'em a couple more. Maybe the abdomen or groin area would be a better target than the head as well.
cracked butt
Member
Horsepucky!
I've killed countless squirrels with 7 1/2 field loads. The object is to kill the animal, not completely obliterate it! I usually try not to center a squirrel in a pattern either but aim 5 or 6 inches off to the side of its head- I want it to catch 3 or 4 pellets in the head/neck, not 20 in the shoulder/ hams ruining all of the meat. As far as #8 goes, you might be right, I have no experience with ever using #8 for anything.
I stopped using shot smaller than size 6 for upland game hunting and specifically stopped using Federal shotshells of any sort after I watched my buddy nail a squirrel three times with 1 1/4 ounce, 3 1/4 dram 6 shot Federals and do nothing more than push that tree rat further up the trunk.
I'm sure it crawled into a den and died but that doesn't do us any good.
I have lost game that i thought to be solidly hit using Federal Game loads before this incident and this was the final straw.
I have been using Wnchester 1 1/4 ounce, 3 3/4 dram equivelant number 5 shot Super X loads on upland game for several years now with nary a complaint.
Upland game includes squirrel, rabbit, pheasant, stuff I can and will eat.
They kill quickly and consistantly and I rarely have to use a second shot.
This isn't a recommendation for Winchester, I'm just telling the readers what works well for me.
I use a 1 1/8 ounce # 7 1/2 field load for doves but it doesn't really matter for me what load I use, I still can't hit the doves!
Sure is fun to go out and shoot at them though.
I'm sure it crawled into a den and died but that doesn't do us any good.
I have lost game that i thought to be solidly hit using Federal Game loads before this incident and this was the final straw.
I have been using Wnchester 1 1/4 ounce, 3 3/4 dram equivelant number 5 shot Super X loads on upland game for several years now with nary a complaint.
Upland game includes squirrel, rabbit, pheasant, stuff I can and will eat.
They kill quickly and consistantly and I rarely have to use a second shot.
This isn't a recommendation for Winchester, I'm just telling the readers what works well for me.
I use a 1 1/8 ounce # 7 1/2 field load for doves but it doesn't really matter for me what load I use, I still can't hit the doves!
Sure is fun to go out and shoot at them though.
epijunkie67
Member
Words from the ER
Well, all I can add is more anecdote but here's a few cases I've seen before. I'm a residency trained ER doc so I've seen a few people shot before.
In residency when I was on the trauma team we had a fellow come in who had been shot with birdshot at point blank range in the chest. He'd been trying to break into a house during the day and thought nobody was home. Turns out a 15 year old who lived there had broken his leg the day before and was home from school with his new cast. He heard the noise, grabbed the 12 gauge, and hobbled into the kitchen where the perp was forcing the window open. Caught him with one leg slung over the window sill, half in and half out the window.
According to the police who followed the ambulance to the hospital the following conversation took place.
"Stop. If you come in this house I'll shoot you."
"F--k you MotherF--ker."
"BLAM"
Fellow landed in the yard and ran three houses down before collapsing. When he got to us he was awake and bitching up a storm. He'd taken the shot center chest with either #7.5 or #8 shot. He had partially collapsed both lungs and required bilateral chest tubes. We also intubated him of course. The cat scan showed he had about 40 pellets in his chest and a about a dozen in his leg. No pellets in his heart or major vessels, though some had penetrated past them all the way to his back.
No surgery was ever done. He spent over a month in ICU but eventually walked out of the hospital. No charges filed. Dude was a minor, barely, and his mother wanted to sue the kid who shot her "poor innocent baby".
I still have a copy of his scan downstairs. Come by sometime and we'll have a beer and I'll show it to you.
Moral? Birdshot can penetrate but is inconsistant. Yes, dude was luck as hell but part of his luck was the size of the shot used. Small holes seal themselves off faster than big holes. Would this kid have died? Hell yes. Would he have died quick? Obviously not. He lived long enough for the ambulance to come and get him to us. Easily enough time to retaliate if he had the means. Was this an exception and not the rule? Probably.
Bottom line? I don't personally trust small shot in a home defense or antipersonel application. If I'm shooting someone I want them to stop right now, not later after they finally bleed out or get septic in the ICU. Thats just my opinion. YMMV.
Well, all I can add is more anecdote but here's a few cases I've seen before. I'm a residency trained ER doc so I've seen a few people shot before.
In residency when I was on the trauma team we had a fellow come in who had been shot with birdshot at point blank range in the chest. He'd been trying to break into a house during the day and thought nobody was home. Turns out a 15 year old who lived there had broken his leg the day before and was home from school with his new cast. He heard the noise, grabbed the 12 gauge, and hobbled into the kitchen where the perp was forcing the window open. Caught him with one leg slung over the window sill, half in and half out the window.
According to the police who followed the ambulance to the hospital the following conversation took place.
"Stop. If you come in this house I'll shoot you."
"F--k you MotherF--ker."
"BLAM"
Fellow landed in the yard and ran three houses down before collapsing. When he got to us he was awake and bitching up a storm. He'd taken the shot center chest with either #7.5 or #8 shot. He had partially collapsed both lungs and required bilateral chest tubes. We also intubated him of course. The cat scan showed he had about 40 pellets in his chest and a about a dozen in his leg. No pellets in his heart or major vessels, though some had penetrated past them all the way to his back.
No surgery was ever done. He spent over a month in ICU but eventually walked out of the hospital. No charges filed. Dude was a minor, barely, and his mother wanted to sue the kid who shot her "poor innocent baby".
I still have a copy of his scan downstairs. Come by sometime and we'll have a beer and I'll show it to you.
Moral? Birdshot can penetrate but is inconsistant. Yes, dude was luck as hell but part of his luck was the size of the shot used. Small holes seal themselves off faster than big holes. Would this kid have died? Hell yes. Would he have died quick? Obviously not. He lived long enough for the ambulance to come and get him to us. Easily enough time to retaliate if he had the means. Was this an exception and not the rule? Probably.
Bottom line? I don't personally trust small shot in a home defense or antipersonel application. If I'm shooting someone I want them to stop right now, not later after they finally bleed out or get septic in the ICU. Thats just my opinion. YMMV.
brian roberts
Member
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
- Messages
- 153
shot......
yes, well, try some high brass(or, for th' little lady) LOW brass 4s, or 2s!!! i guarantee you double-tap some idiot that way, you'll make a believer out of the ER personnel, besides, its easier....
yes, well, try some high brass(or, for th' little lady) LOW brass 4s, or 2s!!! i guarantee you double-tap some idiot that way, you'll make a believer out of the ER personnel, besides, its easier....
bogie
Member
epijunkie67, a coupla things...
1) Do you know the distance that the fellow was shot at? Had the shot already started to spread?
2) Are you hooked on EPI speakers?
1) Do you know the distance that the fellow was shot at? Had the shot already started to spread?
2) Are you hooked on EPI speakers?
epijunkie67
Member
1. The shot had spread enough to cover an area at least 6 inches across but not much more than that. The shooting occured in a kitchen, which tends to be smaller than something like a living room. So obviously not contact range but certainly well withing "typical" home defense ranges. I'd guess 6-12 feet. I also don't know what kind of choke, if any was in use.
2. Nope. Hooked on epi. Slang for epinepherine. Medical term for adrenaline.
For those of you who insist on using birdshot for HD I'd recommend aiming for high body shots. Avoid the head or stomach area. The skull is too difficult to get through and the abdomen has too few vital structures to hit reliably. With a high body shot you stand a better chance of hitting the heart, a major neck vessle, or puncturing the lungs.
The thing that i dont understand about this argument is this: Buckshot is and always has been, regarded as one of the best man-stoppers at close range. In fact it is considered by most to be hands-down the single deadliest thing one can be shot with under 20 or so yards. SO my question is this; If you have a weapon that can fire this absurdly effective load, why would you use anything else?
Silent-Snail
Member
Well I may just be blind, but back when I used a shotgun the only places that I knew of that sold ammo sold either slugs or birdshot. :banghead: Considering I'm talking about myself I'd say blindness. Havn't checked sinse I sold the shotgun.
Havn't checked sinse I sold the shotgun.280PLUS
Member
Overpenetration-I have kids in the house, if some of those pellets miss I want them to stop ASAP and not find their way into the kid's room.
If you train with your handgun it's always 2 to the body and 1 to the head. What makes a shotgun any different? As I stated earlier, I use #4 in a high brass shell for home defense. The pellets still pass cleanly through a normal IDPA cardboard target at 50 yds. I guarantee you, as long as I'm not totally surprised by a perp he/she will get more than one round and if that doesn't "deter" them from their planned activities I'll empty the gun into them if I have the chance. If I pump a couple into your gut or Mr Happy, you'll stop, you may not die right away, but you'll stop. Let's talk perforated bladder.
That'll slow you right down.- Status
