Gun shop and range idiocy

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Billyboy92365, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. Reloadron
    • Contributing Member

    Reloadron Contributing Member

    Jul 6, 2012
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    While I haven't a clue as to where you live despite forum conversation I have never seen or read about any documented instance where a shooters ability came into play. During the course of my life all the law enforcement guys I have been acquainted with (NYC, NYC Transit, Nassau County NY and Cleveland, Ohio and Cleveland suburbs, have all been trained to shoot the same way and aim the same way. I have never seen marksmanship called out in a shooting. The shooting is or is not justified in a court proceeding. Does anyone have a credible link where marksmanship skills or ammunition was actually called into question? Credible is not I heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend, who once knew someone who worked for someone who had this happen. Credible means just that, credible.

    Rock185 and the Real Alpo like this.
  2. Eddietruett

    Eddietruett Member

    Jan 7, 2018
    You can have a squib with factory or reload and I'll be the first to say it will happen more often with a reload than with factory. I've had a few in my 40 years of loading and at least in my case, it was due to being careless when loading. I used to try and load as many rounds as fast as I could on my Lee Classic Turret press and I found that the auto drum powder measure doesn't seem to drop consistently when I got in a hurry, but now that I have a Dillon 650, I can take my time and still load a bunch in a short period of time. The last squib I got was because I tried some plated bullets without knowing they ran slower than lead due to the increased friction and loading a plated wadcutter with 2.7gr of Bullseye won't push it through a 8 3/8" barrel every time. I can understand a range owner not letting reloads on their range, especially with all the liability issues today, but the reason I posted above was not so much to complain about not being able to use my reloads, but the owner's claim of how unsafe it was and he created an even more unsafe situation by letting an idiot into his range that couldn't even load his gun. I've been to several ranges that required you to watch a range safety video before shooting and the RO would usually watch any newbie to make sure he knew what he was doing.
  3. BlueHeelerFl

    BlueHeelerFl Member

    Dec 29, 2002
    Treasure Coast, FL
    The only thing that comes close is the guy thst used a G29 in a self defense shooting and the prosecution used the powerful 10mm against him
  4. BlueHeelerFl

    BlueHeelerFl Member

    Dec 29, 2002
    Treasure Coast, FL
    The outdoor range I used to go to in NE PA would have gun rentals for the tourists from Philly and NYC. They would charge like $1 or more per bullet for cheap reloads, this was about 15 or so years ago. The rental part of the range was at the far end, so the tourists had to parade back and forth behind the regular firing line.

    One day a Spanish family came out after shooting and their boy and girl, both very young, ran up to my shooting table and started grabbing guns and mags. After I yelled at them not to do that the parents started a fight with me for daring to yell at their kids.

    Of course the range didn't say anything to the parents since they made more money from stupid tpurists than range regulars
  5. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

    Jul 3, 2018
    Not DFW
    Thank the Heaven's Terrell RPC doesn't have that rule. I wouldn't be able to afford to shoot. I went through 800 rounds of .45 ACP and 200 rounds of 9mm last week. All of them reloads. My shooting buddy went through around 400-500 rounds of .45 ACP, all reloads. Of course we gauge every round and I run a RCBS Lock-Out die on both my 650s.

    It's like anything else, there are those who can and do, those who could and don't, and those who shouldn't but do.
  6. pharmer

    pharmer Member

    Aug 30, 2004
    Santo las Nubes, Fl
    Few years back I was at a local indoor range. Just me and a well dressed Man in the 1st stall against the wall. So I am enjoying myself while the other guy would fire a shot, curse in intelligible language, fiddle with the gun, repeat. After awhile no more shots and then while I'm reloading, said guy comes up behind, real fast pointing a KelTec 9mm at my midsection with finger on the trigger. After not dropping him or soiling my drawers, come to find out he was a local business owner from Cameroon, been robbed half a dozen times and bought the gun for "security.". Shop sold him Pf9 and included box ammo, no charge, pointed him toward range. I gave best "half hour all inclusive" lesson I could to (turns out) decent, grateful guy. Haven't been back. Joe
    entropy likes this.
  7. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Aug 30, 2011
    Precisely. I have seen some people struggle with reloading, and others produce ammo that is more reliable than bulk-grade factory (not to mention more accurate).

    Like gun use/ownership itself, it's not for everyone.
    Demi-human likes this.
  8. Outlaw75

    Outlaw75 Member

    Oct 10, 2014
    Glendale, AZ
    That was Harold Fish in Arizona and although that was used against him, the real problem with that case was that the judge would not allow the victim's prior history of violent behavior into evidence.


    This is, though, the reason Mas Ayoob advises people to not use reloads in EDC. Fish didn't use reloads, but it wouldn't take much for a prosecutor to try and make out like you were a viscous killer who went out of his way to load extra-heavy duty killer loads. So, even though no one's ever seen marksmanship ability used against an LEO or a civilian it doesn't mean it won't be at some point in the future.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    BlueHeelerFl likes this.
  9. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 11, 2004
    While it is a diversion, there have been cases where competition and training have been brought up at trial to defame the shooter. Similarly, ammo types, stupid decorations have been mentioned. We've gone over this quite a bit. We have some stickys on such to look for, so let's not replay that old debate. You can expect a lawyer to discover whatever and use it.

    If it you don't think it occurs, I suggest serious research. Let's not take this thread in that direction. Doubters - go look it up.
    Jeff22, stillquietvoice and Outlaw75 like this.
  10. Stevie-Ray

    Stevie-Ray Member

    Feb 22, 2003
    Mitchi-gun, the Sunrise Side
    Am I the first to say that in my experience, it will happen more often with a factory load? I've had many squibs, mostly factory .22s, but a few centerfires, also. I've never had one from my own reloads, through thousands of rounds. Guess it depends on how much you pay attention, and I've never wanted to simply see how many I could punch out in an hour. I always stopped and weighed every tenth round, as well. Some of the experimental light practice loads could loosely be considered squibs, since they wouldn't cycle properly, but that was a matter of recoil spring changes, as they always exited, and nothing else. Always had 4 different weights of spring for my pin gun.
  11. aarondhgraham

    aarondhgraham Member

    Sep 28, 2012
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    I belong to a private rifle/pistol club,,,
    All members goes through a mandatory RSO session,,,
    So, due to that, there are no RSO's permanently at the range.

    This does make it a little "iffy" to call for a cease fire to check targets,,,
    But for the most part our members are safe to be around.

    What I have the most problems with are the self-appointed range monitors,,,
    Usually older farts (like me) who think they are the boss-o-the-range.

    Our range doesn't have any restriction on rapid fire,,,
    Range dumps are allowed with no problem.

    Long story short, one day I was shooting next to a couple,,,
    Safe shooters, but who were burning through mags like crazy.

    They were packing up when an old "range rat" came up yelling and screaming,,,
    The couple did the right thing by completely ignoring the old azz-hat,,,
    Then he came over and started yelling at me for the same thing.

    I let him wind down without saying a word,,,
    Then pointed to the only gun I had,,,
    A WZ-48 single-shot .22.

    He got all flustered and left in his car,,,
    I did jot down his license plate number though,,,
    And reported his behavior to the president of our club.

    I honestly don't know what officially was done,,,
    But in several years since I've never seen him there again.

    Believe me though,,,
    There are several more members just like him.


  12. Milt1

    Milt1 Member

    Jan 4, 2014
  13. TRX

    TRX Member

    Sep 5, 2008
    Central Arkansas
    I have a Remington Model 8. It's chambered in .30-30 Remington. Which, while otherwise virtually identical to .30-30 Winchester, is a rimless cartridge.

    Not long after introduction Remington changed the name to just ".30 Remington." Which was fine, until the ".30 Remington AR" came out, which is an entirely different cartridge, but more popular than .30 Remington, so the search engines return avalanches of AR hits when you don't want them...

    On the other hand, I'll concede your point, since the .30-30 Remington name went away more than a century ago.
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  14. Jeff22

    Jeff22 Member

    Feb 2, 2005
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Whenever I read a discussion like this I am reminded that not all gun owners are as careful, as skilled, as trained, or as responsible as the members of this group probably are.

    And it's the actions of fools and criminals that form perceptions about guns in the minds of the unfamiliar.
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