20ga for Duty

[AI&P Tactical]

Who would use and 20ga for a duty shotgun if their department allowed it? I would without any hesitation. They are lighter and the ammo is lighter. My only reservation would be there is no Dedicated Forend weapon light made for it and with Surefire they only one out there making a Dedicated forend light, don't look for one any time soon (maybe). Other then that I would never feel under-gunned with a 20ga shotgun in my hands.

I also believe the time has come for Departments to start considering this as an option for Officers. Many would choose this option based on their preference or possibly their size.

 

[Virginian]

I think it's an interesting concept, and I agree with you I like the idea. Very practical with more female officers, too.

 

[rcmodel]

I also believe the time has come for Departments to start considering this as an option for Officers

I don't believe making it an option for individual officers is an option.

1. Common ammo supply is critical.
IE: You have 12ga ammo in the trunk from shift change, but you show up and take over the car with a 20ga.

2. Plus, there is cost involved. Departments get price breaks depending on the volume of the order of the same ammo. Splitting the order into half 20 & half 12 would raise the cost of each of them by several cents per round. Which is big bucks on a typical department ammo order.

3. Non-lethal or special purpose ammo may not even be available or as effective in 20ga.
IE: Bean Bag, Rubber buck, etc.

4. It is Dangerous to have 20ga ammo floating around with 12 ga shotguns.
IE: A 20 shell in a 12 will lodge in the forcing cone, creating a bore obstruction.

Murphy's law is especially in force during times of stress cops are under when shotguns come out.

I think it's a very bad idea.

If you are too small to shoot a 12ga, you might be too small to be a cop in several other areas too!

Rc

 

[fallout mike]

All valid points RC made.

 

[jmorris]

I have shot many 3 gun matches with a 20ga. Shot colum and choke has helped me win with it.

That said, I do it more for the taboo aspect (knocking down steel with it that the 12ga guys leave standing) and that factory loads shoot about the same as my handloads for the 12ga.

I am a gamer though not an operator.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I killed a deer at 35 yards with 3 buck last year. Why not? I like 3 buck out of a 20, lots of umph and 20 pellets in the pellet count. I keep it loaded for home defense, but that's not a duty weapon. I'm not a cop, so i don't have to make these decisions. It'd be tough to keep me from picking a 12 with 00 if I knew I were going to need it for serious use at unknown ranges. Home defense ranges, I don't think there's a doubt in my mind that 3 buck is more'n enough.

Also, if your department issues specialty rounds like rubber shot or such, it'll be in 12 gauge, not likely in 20. Something to think about.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Standardized? Sure.

Optional? No way!

Todd.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

The issue is not controlled by the individual Officer. It is controlled in most of the states by the states "Criminal Justice Standards Commission", Once CJSC says yes, then the Department can allow it. Once approved the Department can allow the 20ga shotgun.

In most of this country there are fewer then three Deputies on duty after certain times at night. They are not taking on the Jamaican Possy. They don't need meg amounts of ammo. They are not in shoot outs yelling "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition". So there is no risk that they are going to need the guy next to them ammo. Besides, if they are out then I bet he is out also cause everyone is shooting. Also, 99.9% of Police shootings are over in Seconds, not minutes, well in real life.

Based on the points you guys attempt to make, Officers have to only carry a rifle in one Caliber. Yet, some Departments and many in rural area allow them to carry a rifle in 5.56 or .308. A lot of M1A SOCOMS out their guys. Same with hand guns. Many small Departments leave it up to the Officer to select from several approved calibers. One is standing there with a 9mm, another with .40cal and another with .45 ACP. Was in Texas and saw LE's still with .357 Revolvers. So the point about different ammo is not an issue in this discussion. Period.

Also, Specialty Impact Munitions are only fired in a Dedicated Identifiable Designated Less then Lethal weapon so that point is mute.

Have yet to hear a single valid reason from you guys.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Bureaucracy is as slow moving as molasses left outside in a Texas blue norther.

Best reason I can come up with ...

As to practicality ... I can easily see it. Brenneke already makes KO slugs for the 20 ... that and a good full velocity FliteControl buckshot load in 20 from Federal and that should do it.

 

[rcmodel]

So, your minds made up?

So is mine!

And if you only have three cops on duty after a certain time of night?

You must live a very sheltered life in a very small part of the state.

rc

 

[postalnut25]

As a working officer, why not. I have to supply my own pistol, my own back-up, and my own rifle. If I felt the need to have a shotgun, I would prefer a 20ga over the twelve, especially because my department only uses slugs. I would probably have to supply my own shotgun, too, but that's no big deal.

I don't check out the shotgun, because I do not like the ones we have. Many officers don't use shotguns, anyway. Most of the calls that I go to where a long gun is deployed, it is a rifle. Many officers feel that they can shoot the rifle better, and in most situations it is the better choice.

I own each round I fire, therefore I would prefer a patrol rifle or a smaller, more controllable segmenting slug, like what comes out of the 20 gauges.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have been on LE ranges with some very small individuals. I have never seen one fail to qualify with a 12 gauge. I don't see the need for a 20 gauge. I also don't want two different gauges floating around the workplace. Mix ups are far too easy.

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

I couldn't give up the shot capacity of the 12ga for the lighter recoil of the 20ga. Magazine extensions are OK for the individual but anything that requires special training is a PITA for a police department. Anything from a Maverick88 to a Remington 870 police has an 8 or 9 shot capacity right out of the box. No more than police officers shoot a shotgun I would be more inclined to issue the cheaper Maverick 88.

Lights are a dime a dozen for shotguns. I have a 300 lumen and 1600 lumen light for my Maverick 88. I have less than $75 in both lights, 4 rechargeable 18650 batteries, charger and a magazine tube mount. Ultrafire lights come out of the box with a tail cap switch and a Cree T6 bulb. The oldest Ultrafire lights I have are over 5 years old.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

So the point about different ammo is not an issue in this discussion. Period.

Not the case at all... Period.

Varying rifle, carbine, pistol or revolver ammunition is not a valid consideration in this discussion where standardization is the point of debate. If standardization of the other weapons is already polluted - it does not waiver the argument that while 20 gauge may be acceptable - if it is allowed, it should be standardized.

My experience - while not absolute - is that the majority (if not in fact all) of the agencies with which I've dealt have had their duty ammunition drawn from their respective departments.

Just 'cause some podunk agencies allow Deputy Fife to pick his ammo up from the bait shop doesn't mean that dropping a standard is a good idea or even an OK one.

20's fine but why mess with the one remaining standard just 'cause the others have been allowed to slip due to preferential hiring practices or economic factors? In for a penny, in for a pound.

Todd.

 

[wtr100]

With the reduced recoil 12 ga out there what's the point?

Besides aren't most depart's moving to carbines anyways?

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

Another point is the cost of 20ga ammo. I can easily find 250 rounds of 00 buckshot for $75 at full retail. I am not talking about some off brand ammo either. I am talking about good reliable federal ammo. Law enforcement and qualified FFL holders can knock another 30% off that price.

 

[JO JO]

add me to bad idea

 

[AI&P Tactical]

Over 80% ( old data so may have change in the past couple of years) of LEO's in the United states work in Departments with less then 15 sworn Deputies or Officers. Do the math on how many on would be on duty at any given time to cover 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Many of these are required to purchase their own weapons and ammo. And yes, of course there are restrictions to the weapon, calibers and gauges they can use. These are set most often by state a wide "Criminal Standards Commission". The Cost of ammo is not an issue as it is an essential part of what is required. As sad as it is the fact is that the average recreational shooter gets more trigger time then most LEO's so ammo costing a few cents more a round is not an issue.

I think maybe I asked the wrong question as except for a few members there are some misperceptions about LE work here.

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

Over 80% ( old data so may have change in the past couple of years) of LEO's in the United states work in Departments with less then 15 sworn Deputies or Officers. Do the math on how many on would be on duty at any given time to cover 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Many of these are required to purchase their own weapons and ammo. And yes, of course there are restrictions to the weapon, calibers and gauges they can use. These are set most often by state a wide "Criminal Standards Commission". The Cost of ammo is not an issue as it is an essential part of what is required. As sad as it is the fact is that the average recreational shooter gets more trigger time then most LEO's so ammo costing a few cents more a round is not an issue.

I think maybe I asked the wrong question as except for a few members there are some misperceptions about LE work here.

That is how I got my 5" 9mm XD. An officer was working for a small department that furnished ammo but the officers had to supply their own weapons. The department switched to 40 cal. The department gives officers a stipend of less than $400 to get a new weapon and holster. I had a Gen3 G23 that I seldom shot. We just swapped weapons heads up both of us were happy.

We have a match coming up in early Feb, I need to knock the dust off the XD and sell it. i should be able to get anough for the XD to be well on the way to getting another G19.

 

[nyresq]

the vast majority of departments are moving away from shotguns and going to carbines. Or at a minimum they are going to all slugs. With buckshot its too hard to account for every pellet when you pull the trigger.

With that said, if I couldn't have a carbine, I would rather have a light load 12ga then a full power 20ga.

The choices available or a 12ga with less lethal rounds, short (2") rounds for increased magazine capacity, reduced recoil rounds and even multi slug projectiles (saw some two stacked slug rounds in a store last week) give you the choice to load it however you want.

You can always download a 12ga, but you can never UPload a 20ga. Its nice to know if you have a need to, you can throw a 3" slug into the chamber, even if its loaded with 2" short shells.

 

[mnrivrat]

For department use I have to be one that rejects the idea for a number of good reasons already pointed out.

That said , my HD shotgun has been for many years a 20ga. I have taken deer , pheasant, partridge, and other varmets with 20ga. & have never felt underguned with it for SD.

So I am a person who recommends 20ga for many uses, a sizable LE department however is not one of them.

 

[plumberroy]

If you are too small to shoot a 12ga, you might be too small to be a cop in several other areas too!

All though I agree with you, with today's diversity policies that isn't an option There are men on this site that whine about recoil So I don't see a problem allowing 20 ga guns

By the way J.D. Can you change the trigger group to lefty on a right hand 20 ga 870 like the 12 you built me?
Roy

 

[AI&P Tactical]

Remington does not offer the RHEJ/LHS in 20ga so that is a no go.

I KNOW. They should pass a law that every one of you have to carry the exact same hand gun in the exact same caliber for concealed carry. Many of you already agree to this based on your statements here. Congress will appoint a committee to determine which gun that will be and in which caliber and what the capacity of that gun will be. This will be the only gun that is legal to carry in the United states of America

How many of you like the above idea? Don't like it?

This is the same thing many LEO's are dealing with every shift.

 

[Virginian]

LOL ! Well said. And every one will have to be a SMART safe gun, too.

 

[Gordon]

I don't see any advantage because when you cut down the weight of a 20ga. suddenly it kicks the same as a 12ga, just ask my wife when I got her to try the 20ga. Ultra light Ithaca 37 deerslayer. With reduced recoil 12ga. loads, which most modern agencies use/have the advantage goes to the 12 ga. as it has 9 00 pellets at still use able velocity or a 1 .oz butter soft slug (which is what I use for my antipersonnel load) . There are other 12ga. loads that are not available in 20 ga. The idea just sucks all around IMHO and is just pandering to the wimps and whiners, who should not be street cops IMHO.