25 acp or other mouse calibers!

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redneck2 said:
I can tell you two situations with .25’s

I have a friend that had a .25 and decided to target shoot a little. He had an old tote like you use to store household stuff. It was cracked on one side so he used the other side as a target. Shot it three times at about ten feet.

At the third shot, he felt something sting his leg. The bullet was laying there. None had penetrated the plastic.
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I second this but in my case it was a 5 gallon hydraulic fluid bucket.
 
My first gun was a Baby Browning. I bought it second hand for R200 (this was in Johannesburg). That was all I could afford at the time and it was a small gun for my pocket.
That was the gun I used to arrest a guy who had beaten up one security guard and tried to stab another another one in Johannesburg, 1995.
The story is on THR somewhere.

My current thinking is that the .25ACP is not a contender for a pocket gun if you can afford a .380 such as the SIG238.
Sure, the .25ACP has killed people. I saw a case first hand where a guy was shot with a .25ACP FMJ from close range in the abdomen. The bullet managed to get down into the pelvis and take out an iliac artery. The guy was dead soon after arrival in the hospital, with hardly any external blood loss evident. He had bled internally.

I've said it before: if I was in the US I would get a SIG238 as a pocket gun. I've used them in the US at various shooting ranges and they are accurate, reliable guns which I seem to take a natural shine to.
But if a .25ACP is all you can get, it is one step up from a small .22LR because of the more reliable ignition of the cartridge. My Baby Browning never failed to fire, but I concede I had feeding issues initially because the magazine was old and the feed lips were splayed, resulting in the cartridge being jammed at an angle in the action. Once I fixed the feed lips, that problem went away.
 
I have to confess to an inordinate fondness for "mouse guns." For me, they just make it the easiest to follow the first rule of "have a gun." :)

The Beretta Jetfire below is one that I'll still occasionally tuck in a pocket when I go out to rake the leaves or otherwise putter around the house. I've found mine to be completely reliable, and surprisingly accurate (when one accounts for the vestigial sights...).

pocket pieces_resized more.jpg
 
Unkei said:
OK...I’ve had it!
Everywhere you look on the God, (Or Gore Given Internet!), mouse gun calibers, in particular the 25 acp...is talked about as just pissin a perp off if you shoot him with it! OMG...enough! I was an LEO in a large metropolitan area for 36 years...part of that time as a detective. I spent many hours in the morgue..and can tell you from ACTUAL experience that small calibers can...and will do the job. I call BS on the apocryphal tales of small calibers just irritating the perp! Sure..if you knew you were going to war..so to speak..a larger caliber means a bigger hole! As for stopping power from ANY handgun caliber..it is pretty much a myth. If you need real stopping power..DON’T use a handgun of any caliber. Use a 12 guage or a 50 BMG! Otherwise, its all about shot placement and familiarity with your platform of choice! Do not for one minute believe that a 45 acp will blow a mans arm off at the elbow, or that a one shot stop with any handgun caliber is the norm! It just ain’t so!!! Buy the weapon you’re comfortable with and become more than proficient with it. Your efforts will be more than amply rewarded! Get over the caliber wars crap! Just do your due diligence, practice and train! Now..I know this post is bound to start a flame war...So Be It! But I speak from many years of REAL EXPERIENCE..and not from internet expertise! Let’s get real here..and understand the limitations of any handgun platform for self defense. Nothing in ANY handgun caliber is a magic solution to an SD situation...PERIOD! Feel free to flame me here..I expect it! But don’t let internet EXPERTS give you false..(bottle) courage! It just ain’t realistic!
Cheers,
Unkei
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During my PAST 20 plus years as a peace officer I had the good fortune to not have to investigate many homicides. Two that come to mind were performed with a mouse gun. In both cases the person shot died within a minute or less. One took a .32 from a Tomcat thru the ribs and had his aorta knicked. The other took a .25 ACP from a Titan thru the ear canal. Neither had any external signs of bleeding nor much in the way of visible wounds.

Did put a deer out of it's misery one night with a PPK clone in .22 LR. The slug went in the ear canal and there was an extensive blood pool around the head as she bled out.

Me personally, I doubt if anyone would be brave enough to let some one shoot them with a .25 or .22 Short just to prove them not deadly
 
My advice to folks is to get the largest pistol that they will actually carry, conceal, practice with, and fire accurately.

If that gun is a .22, .25, .32, or .380, so be it. As many have said, any gun that is actually in your hands at a time of need is better than any gun left in a drawer at home.
 
A long time ago I had a Jennings (don't laugh) I carried when me and my friends would go on day hikes in the canyons above Salt Lake. It was surprisingly accurate and reliable considering, and rode well on my hip with one spare mag.
I had no illusions about it's effectiveness against men, cougars or coyotes, but it was light, cheap, and better than nothing. Zapped two rattlers with it, both ten foot shots, and it did the trick. I also carried it with me when I went on field exercises with the reserves for the same reason. Ended up trading it for a .38 derringer so I could shoot snakeshot, but both served me well enough. And before anyone points out the thread where I was issued a .45, they didn't issue ammo for any of our weapons when we were in the field, so it behooved myself and the guys in my unit to fill in the blanks at times.
Our CO looked the other way because it kept us from getting bit from the things, as long as we didn't make it overt.
 
I don't have any mouse guns. If I did it wouldn't be a 25.
Nothing against anyone that likes the round. I just don't see the point when there are so many 380's to choose from that weigh a couple more ounces.
 
Unkei said:
...mouse gun calibers, in particular the 25 acp...is talked about as just pissin a perp off if you shoot him with it!

I was an LEO in a large metropolitan area for 36 years...part of that time as a detective. I spent many hours in the morgue...
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Looking at dead bodies. No argument, no flame. No detective does any work in a morgue other than viewing (to include observing autopsies) dead bodies.
Unkei said:
...and can tell you from ACTUAL experience that small calibers can...and will do the job.
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Indeed. You can tell from actual experience AFTER the action is over and the body is ensconced in the morgue the late lamented is dead. Excellent observational skills, detective.

So what were the circumstances surrounding the death of the person now resting in the morgue?
Was he or she the attacker or victim?
Was the person shot by a defender in the act of attacking with a deadly weapon or shot in the back of the head, unaware?
How long was the dead person 'active' between time of receiving wound and lack of ability to further respond or act? For that matter, how many shots were needed to subdue the dead?


Unkei said:
I call BS on the apocryphal tales of small calibers just irritating the perp!
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You are certainly entitled to that opinion. I am likewise entitled to call BS on the claim of knowledge based on viewing dead bodies.

No one questions the ability of a given item to kill. Killing is not the issue. Stopping the villain from doing damage and injury on the lawful defender is the issue. Should I have to shoot anyone in defense of my life, I mostly want them to stop their attack instantly. If I shoot them and they rip my face off with a broken bottle and then die somewhat later, I did NOT win. The converse is true as well: If I shoot said attacker who is attempting to kill me or at least tear off my face with a broken bottle; the attacker drops the bottle and falls inert to the ground and later requires no more than a band-aide and an aspirin, I WON.

I have to wonder, from whom or where did you learn about self-defense and the lethal use of force?
 
Odd Job said:
I've said it before: if I was in the US I would get a SIG238 as a pocket gun. I've used them in the US at various shooting ranges and they are accurate, reliable guns which I seem to take a natural shine to.
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I agree. Just my humble opinion, but I'm not fond of the little plastic .380s; they don't have enough heft to soak up the recoil. I love the Kel-Tec P32, but my choice for .380 is the SIG.

Second choice would be slightly larger pistol, like the Glock 42 or Ruger LC 380. In fact, if Ruger made that pistol striker-fired, with a no-safety option (like the LC9S PRO), I'd probably own one.
 
Tinpig said:
I bought the little Colt .25 ACP out of curiosity, to fill out the family, and for a possible backup role.
View attachment 767223
Apart from anything else, it did not fit in my hand and was wildly inaccurate.
I had no confidence in it and it seemed pointlesss so I sold it and bought a Sig P238.
No regrets.
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Is that one in the middle a .32? If it is, then I have 2 out of 3, the other being the Colt Jr. .25. It is one of several I have "inherited" over the years. The Jr. resides in a desk drawer and is more accurate at 10 yds. than the .32, mainly because the .25 was still NIB when it came to me. The .32 is almost 100 years old and the rifling is pretty worn down, but it still functions quite well.
 
Archie said:
Looking at dead bodies. No argument, no flame. No detective does any work in a morgue other than viewing (to include observing autopsies) dead bodies.
Indeed. You can tell from actual experience AFTER the action is over and the body is ensconced in the morgue the late lamented is dead. Excellent observational skills, detective.

So what were the circumstances surrounding the death of the person now resting in the morgue?
Was he or she the attacker or victim?
Was the person shot by a defender in the act of attacking with a deadly weapon or shot in the back of the head, unaware?
How long was the dead person 'active' between time of receiving wound and lack of ability to further respond or act? For that matter, how many shots were needed to subdue the dead?


You are certainly entitled to that opinion. I am likewise entitled to call BS on the claim of knowledge based on viewing dead bodies.

No one questions the ability of a given item to kill. Killing is not the issue. Stopping the villain from doing damage and injury on the lawful defender is the issue. Should I have to shoot anyone in defense of my life, I mostly want them to stop their attack instantly. If I shoot them and they rip my face off with a broken bottle and then die somewhat later, I did NOT win. The converse is true as well: If I shoot said attacker who is attempting to kill me or at least tear off my face with a broken bottle; the attacker drops the bottle and falls inert to the ground and later requires no more than a band-aide and an aspirin, I WON.

I have to wonder, from whom or where did you learn about self-defense and the lethal use of force?
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Well...I was a uniformed officer then a detective for a total of 36 years in a large metropolitan area..our Capital city. So I didn’t just get my information viewing bodies at the morgue or out of a hat! I’ve been stabeed twice and shot once..so have a tiny bit of real world self defense experience. As for the use of lethal force, I learned the basics in the police academy, too darn much ongoing physical training in boxing, judo and grappling, and several advanced training schools. But...I certainly do not consider myself an expert anything. Learning is..or should be an ongoing process! And I’m more than willing to consider your viewpoint, and anyone else who seems to state their opinion from an intelligent consideration of any known facts. What I try very hard not to do is tear someone else down, especially without actual knowledge of their life experience.
Unkei
 
When I was in Field Artillery Cannon Battery Officers course at Ft. Sill we had occasion to go out to the east range and shoot under flairs at night. As it was just after dark and summer we were warned that rattlers prefer being nocturnal in their hunts. Naturally this had no effect on the large number of Hudson High Grads in that particular class, but us prior service guys tried to keep and eye, ear, and ESP out for Jake the Snake.

Yea, verily one of the Hudson High Grads asked "What is that buzzing noise?" and started to walk TOWARDS it. I hurled my sheath knife at the coiled shape and then screamed "Don't shoot my knife!!!!" As no sooner had I let fly with the steel than two other prior service guys put a .25 and a .32 into the already dying reptilian. Several of the Hudson High Guys were distraught and upset that low lifes such as we had privately owned weaponry on or about our persons, though Mr. Curious, the guy closest to the target of all that destruction, seemed to think it had been a good idea for us to go armed. A couple of instructors trotted over as I recovered my knife and finished removing Jake's head. Only issue was whether the gun men had returned their weapons to a safe condition and the Chief USMC instructor asked me to bring my knife to him next day to show I had cleaned and sharpened it after that throw. The only change I made in my life at Sill after that evening was to carry my Beretta 34 IWB from then on in the field in addition to my knife.

Funny thing, a few days later in the field I cut up a prickly pear that looked juicy and was sharing it with some of our Lebanese students (they said there was something much like it back home they also snacked on) when Mr. Curious came over and asked to try some. He had it almost to his mouth and stopped with a concerned expression and asked "You have cleaned your knife, right?"

-kBob
 
denton said:
As many have said, .25 isn't usually the first choice. I think some of the better .22 rounds are probably better.
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So what do you guys think? Just outta curiosity, if one we're to have a mouse gun (a little automatic that is) would you certainly choose .22lr over .25 acp? I can think of several advantages right off the bat, ammo cost and probably capacity, but how about ballistic stopping power ( or ballistic irritation potential, lol).
Personally, I love all the little guns, just cuz they're so darn cute! Not saying they're the best choice for SD.
 
milemaker13 writes:

So what do you guys think? Just outta curiosity, if one we're to have a mouse gun (a little automatic that is) would you certainly choose .22lr over .25 acp?
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I like these calibers, too. I own a few including the Taurus PT22 and PT25. I shot them side by side once. The .22 certainly offers more "bark-n-spark" at the muzzle, as it uses a round intended for much-longer barrels. The slower burning powder is still burning after the bullet leaves the muzzle, and that produces this. The .25 is noticeably quieter; it uses its faster-burning powder much more efficiently.

For just having a mouse gun, it's .22LR all the way, and I'd even go that route if I was going to carry it for protection, too. The ballistic difference, to me, seems to be largely a wash. The copper-jacketed quarter-incher might slip more easily through flesh, but may also be more likely to deflect off bone if the angle of impact is anything other than dead-on. The double-deuce is certainly more affordable, which allows for more practice and fun, and holds up pretty much just as well as the .25 in real-world shooting situations.

I'm enjoying this thread. It's been remarkably civil.
 
I gave my wife a .25ACP Beretta many years ago and now it is the only gun she has for defense. She told me, our stepson said it was useless and would only make a burglar mad and she should get a J-frame. I took her to the range and let her try a S&W model 36, but because of a problem with her wrists, she can no longer hold the gun comfortably. In fact, it was plain useless for her. I had her shoot to Beretta .25acp and she hit the target. I told her to think of it as a 10 foot long ice pick. Just aim for between the eyes and she would get a result.

I look at the smaller calibers as just fine for what they were designed for.
I carried a Walther PPK in 7.65mm (.32ACP) for several years and was not worried about whether it would stop a threat. It never jammed, hit where I aimed it and I cheated a little by loading it with a HYDRA SHOK in the chamber and a magazine full of COR BON Powerball. Worked fine and never jammed.
Another officer I knew carried a HYDRA SHOK in the chamber of his pocket gun and a magazine full of fmj.

As for using a .22LR instead, forget it. Out of a rifle, the .22LR has it all over the .25ACP and might be better than a .32ACP, but only from a rifle.
Out of a six inch barrel Browning Challenger or Nomad, a Hi Standard or Colt Woodsman, I would definitely go with something like HV .22LR, but why carry one of the .22's when I could just as easily carry a Beretta 92! If the only gun you have is a long barreled .22LR, then use that for SD, like the .25ACP, it is better than your fists.

The two most important things that I have gotten out of carrying a gun for a living is that:
1. YOU NEED TO HAVE A GUN! A Wilson tuned 1911 is useless when it is sitting in your gun safe and you are caught in a parking lot.
2. Reliability comes first. Most of the .25ACP pistols I have handled, worked. The BERETTA and COLT were a 100% reliable. I would put that ahead of stopping power on my buy list.

Remember you can always move up. I carried a .32ACP Beretta Tomcat when my only choice was to gun UNARMED, carry a .25ACP or the Tomcat. I found the Tomcat so reliable, I bought another one and still keep it as a backup. I also bought an even smaller N.A.A. Arms Guardian and a Kel Tec. The N.A.A. is 100% reliable, but miserable too shoot. It recoils much more than the either the Beretta or Kel Tec. I had problems with my Kel Tec and rarely shoot it. I would probably only carry it as a backup, but not as long as I have a Tomcat.

Put more emphasis on having a gun when you need it and hitting the target, than on the caliber!
 
golden said:
As for using a .22LR instead, forget it. Out of a rifle, the .22LR has it all over the .25ACP and might be better than a .32ACP, but only from a rifle.
Out of a six inch barrel Browning Challenger or Nomad, a Hi Standard or Colt Woodsman, I would definitely go with something like HV .22LR, but why carry one of the .22's when I could just as easily carry a Beretta 92! If the only gun you have is a long barreled .22LR, then use that for SD, like the .25ACP, it is better than your fists.
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A full size .22 pistol? I agree, carry a larger caliber (if possible, of course)
But a tiny say 2" barrel (pocket gun), .22 = no go?
I've read somewhere (this thread? Lol) the .22lr is primarily designed as a rifle cartridge, and therefor benefits (requires??) a longer barrel to develope much of its potential. Makes sense... I mean it is the .22 long rifle, not the .22 short pistol.
Slightly off topic, .22 short are like half the size of LR... Wish they were like half the price, lol. There's a cute little cartridge for ya!
 
milemaker13 said:
A full size .22 pistol? I agree, carry a larger caliber (if possible, of course)
But a tiny say 2" barrel (pocket gun), .22 = no go?
I've read somewhere (this thread? Lol) the .22lr is primarily designed as a rifle cartridge, and therefor benefits (requires??) a longer barrel to develope much of its potential. Makes sense... I mean it is the .22 long rifle, not the .22 short pistol.
Slightly off topic, .22 short are like half the size of LR... Wish they were like half the price, lol. There's a cute little cartridge for ya!
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Hey milemaker13,
I certainly agree that a larger caliber makes good (not necessarily better sense) for self defense ( or as some refer to it as “Social Use”), but five (well placed) 22 Magnum rounds could, at the very least, give a bad guy pause! My favored rounds are five 44 Specials from my Charter Arms Bulldog, or a few well placed 45 Colt rounds, (please don’t bother to say 45 Long Colt! Just ain’t necessary these days!), from any of my Single Action Revolvers. Sure...I have several Semi-Autos from 22 up to 45 acp, but just never liked the platform as well as my Revolvers. And this coming from an old geezer with 36 years as a Deputy Sheriff in a large metropolitan area....but the heart wants what the heart wants! I always shot Master with my wheel guns, but when my Office went to Semi-Autos, I was always able to qualify and keep my job...but it was never the same to me!
But one should never discount the lowly 22 Magnum...or other Mouse Calibers....not because as some post..they have killed lots of people, but simply because shot placement is everything! And..believe me..any handgun is a way to get to your rifle or shotgun! A 45 acp from a 1911 ain’t gonna blow someone’s darn arm off! That’s just TV crap or a myth! Oh..and while I’m at it..it drives me nuts to be watching a movie or TV..and see the cop or the bad guy pulling the slide back and racking a round just as they are going into a possible shooting scenario! For Gods sakes..shouldn’t that gat already be ready to go? Come on!
Oh well..sorry to be so long winded..but just like to climb up on my soapbox once in awhile! I’ll go quietly now! LOL!
Unkei
 
I actually bought a couple of 25acp pistols recently, just for fun. One is a German Mauser Model 1910 that was made in the 1920's. The other is a Spanish Star Model CO from the 1950's. They are both nice-looking little pistols that look to be in good shape. I am finally taking them to the range tomorrow morning to try them out.
 
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Milemaker13,

Have you ever checked the velocity of a .22LR coming out of a 2 inch barrel? It is usually the same as a .25ACP from a 2 inch barrel. About 800 to 900 feet per second, so what advantage does it have over a .25ACP. Many years of experience has shown that the .25ACP is more reliable than a .22LR. It is centerfire versus rimfire. Also, the .25ACP was designed to feed in small guns, the .22LR was not. I believe one will be as effective as the other or as ineffective as the other, depending on your view, but the .25ACP should be more reliable in a small Beretta or old Colt and I cannot see any reason to get a larger .22LR snubnose compared to a very compact .25ACP Beretta, my preference.

If you want to argue for the use of a N.A.A. mini revolver, which is really small and gives some of the .25ACP pistols competition, then I would say ok as the N.A.A. revovlers are only in .22LR and .22magnum, but in anything larger with a short barrel, I do not see the sense in it. If you have a 6 inch barreled .22 magnum, it will be as big and heavy as a .38 Special and not nearly as powerful or effective and this size class borders on .357 magnum size as well.

A couple of years ago, S&W released a .22magnum snubby and an article in GUNWORLD magazine tested a .22LR version against a 22magnum. Both were J-frame size and had 1 7/8 inch barrels. The results were pretty weak for both with the .22magnum in the mid 1000 fps range.
The .22magnum has a real advantage in a rifle with as much as 30% faster bullet, plus the magnum bullet is more aerodynamic, in my opinion. It is an effective hunting round with longer range and greater power than a .22LR. But that is with rifles! Neither round is very powerful when used in a handgun and especially not in a snub nose.
 
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