jerkface11
Member
Start calling it 7.62x51R. If it sounds exotic people will like it.
.30-30 Disrespect?
- Thread starter lizziedog1
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I have been in the deep, dark, thick woods in Alabama, and for the ranges here, and in Tennessee, a 30-30 is perfectly adequate.
I mean, it gets hard to see something out to 50 yards, you seldom have a clear shot to 50 yards, all the deer I have shot have been 25 yards or less.
Now if the deer are in the bean field, that is something else, but they sure figure out not to be in the bean field during deer season.
I have a collection of American Rifleman Magazines dating back to the 20's. The post WW1 writers were dumping on the 30-30 and touting the "new, wonderful, powerful" 30-06. You really understood that anyone carrying a 30-30 was a clueless hayseed. The writers of the day also criticized the poor shooting skills of the day, where Mr. Hayseed would blast away at deer all the way to the horizon with 30-30's, sometimes hitting, usually wounding.
Today we are so much more advanced. Mr. Hightech takes his wondermagnum, with range finders and night vision equipment, blasts away at animals on the horizon, sometimes hitting, usually wounding, because his shooting skills are just as poor as Grandpa Hayseed. But the misses are so much more sophisticated.
I mean, it gets hard to see something out to 50 yards, you seldom have a clear shot to 50 yards, all the deer I have shot have been 25 yards or less.
Now if the deer are in the bean field, that is something else, but they sure figure out not to be in the bean field during deer season.
I have a collection of American Rifleman Magazines dating back to the 20's. The post WW1 writers were dumping on the 30-30 and touting the "new, wonderful, powerful" 30-06. You really understood that anyone carrying a 30-30 was a clueless hayseed. The writers of the day also criticized the poor shooting skills of the day, where Mr. Hayseed would blast away at deer all the way to the horizon with 30-30's, sometimes hitting, usually wounding.
Today we are so much more advanced. Mr. Hightech takes his wondermagnum, with range finders and night vision equipment, blasts away at animals on the horizon, sometimes hitting, usually wounding, because his shooting skills are just as poor as Grandpa Hayseed. But the misses are so much more sophisticated.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
A couple of real-world reasons against the .30-30:
First off is that the type of open sights commonly found on the 94 and the 336 don't really allow precision shooting.
Next is that the pressure limitations for lever actions cause the relatively low muzzle velocity compared to other cartridges. This, coupled with the need for a round-nosed bullet, leads to a trajectory which curves downward more rapidly than others for shots beyond a couple of hundred yards.
None of that means that the .30-30 packages are "bad" or that they won't do quite well in certain circumstances. It just depends on one's needs and type of use...
First off is that the type of open sights commonly found on the 94 and the 336 don't really allow precision shooting.
Next is that the pressure limitations for lever actions cause the relatively low muzzle velocity compared to other cartridges. This, coupled with the need for a round-nosed bullet, leads to a trajectory which curves downward more rapidly than others for shots beyond a couple of hundred yards.
None of that means that the .30-30 packages are "bad" or that they won't do quite well in certain circumstances. It just depends on one's needs and type of use...
Vern Humphrey
Member
Ross Seifreid wrote an article, "The Theory of Relativity." He pointed out that you can take a cartridge like the .30-30 in a Marilin or Winchester carbine, and at 100 yards it will bounce off a rabbit. But load it in a T/C Contender with a 12" barrel and suddenly it's slaying moose and grizzlies!
The fact is, the .30-30 is very popular in Alaska -- where many a trapper and homesteader uses it for anything that comes his way.
The fact is, the .30-30 is very popular in Alaska -- where many a trapper and homesteader uses it for anything that comes his way.
TCB in TN
Member
You are right Art, but its interesting that most folks that point out how bad the sights on the ole 30-30 are, shoot rifles that come with NO sights and have to put scopes on them just to be able to aim to start with.
BrocLuno
Member
It's sort of a moving target ...
I think it's natural product cycle. In 1910 - it was the wonder round. So much better than Grandpa's old black powder gun. Every one was all over it. Then the wars came along and folks got used to higher case capacity and pointy bullets, so - of course the "old " round was just not that cool any more.
The press (read sell magazines and pay salary through product placement) had to keep themselves in clover, so they needed an enemy - something to compare against. It was natural for them to start comparing to the previous "wonder" round and seeing the lack of velocity and relatively short arc of useful trajectory. The 270 had to have a skinny kid it could beat up on.
Of course folks in the Spanish speaking countries don't read US Gun magazines. So, world wide and mostly south of the US (all the way to Tierra del Fuego), the 30-30 is the most popular center fire cartridge to this day. Gee, it works (better than it ought to on paper) and the flat nosed bullet puts a lethal whack onto the game (controlled expansion anyone?), and folk have something to eat tonight No reason to change what works when you ain't making much dinero to start with.
Up here, they need to get us to put away what works, and buy something "new" because we are the largest consumer driven economy in the world. Consumers need to consume. That means buying new stuff. The black gun thing is that - create a market by changing the consumers focus. Make it cool. Put it in the movies. Weren't no problem with 30-30 when Chuck Conners was on TV smoking the bad guys. Only un-cool when it does not fit the MATRIX and we need lots of brass falling on the floor for effect.
As soon as folks realize that all sorts of modern rounds are less powerful than the 30-30 and it has a place in the pecking order, they'll focus on something else and it'll go on doing what it's been doing for over 100 years. Getting the job done
I think it's natural product cycle. In 1910 - it was the wonder round. So much better than Grandpa's old black powder gun. Every one was all over it. Then the wars came along and folks got used to higher case capacity and pointy bullets, so - of course the "old " round was just not that cool any more.
The press (read sell magazines and pay salary through product placement) had to keep themselves in clover, so they needed an enemy - something to compare against. It was natural for them to start comparing to the previous "wonder" round and seeing the lack of velocity and relatively short arc of useful trajectory. The 270 had to have a skinny kid it could beat up on.
Of course folks in the Spanish speaking countries don't read US Gun magazines. So, world wide and mostly south of the US (all the way to Tierra del Fuego), the 30-30 is the most popular center fire cartridge to this day. Gee, it works (better than it ought to on paper) and the flat nosed bullet puts a lethal whack onto the game (controlled expansion anyone?), and folk have something to eat tonight
No reason to change what works when you ain't making much dinero to start with.Up here, they need to get us to put away what works, and buy something "new" because we are the largest consumer driven economy in the world. Consumers need to consume. That means buying new stuff. The black gun thing is that - create a market by changing the consumers focus. Make it cool. Put it in the movies. Weren't no problem with 30-30 when Chuck Conners was on TV smoking the bad guys. Only un-cool when it does not fit the MATRIX and we need lots of brass falling on the floor for effect.
As soon as folks realize that all sorts of modern rounds are less powerful than the 30-30 and it has a place in the pecking order, they'll focus on something else and it'll go on doing what it's been doing for over 100 years. Getting the job done
Vern Humphrey
Member
Well . . . the sights you have when you drop the hammer are what's critical, not what sights come on the rifle. I have a .30-30 bought at the PX at Fort Sill, Oklahoma in 1964 that has worn a Williams 5D peep sight ever since.
I've known guys who don't see the point of the 30/30 and have no use for one. I've known guys who had have no use for anything but a 30/30, and when somebody in the family needs a rifle, they get another 30/30. I don't think those guys read gun magazines.
I used to have a 30/30. If my right eye worked better, I'd still have one. As far as scoped rifles go, I prefer bolts. One of my 308's shoots ok with a 165 grain bullet loaded not much hotter than a 30/30.
I used to have a 30/30. If my right eye worked better, I'd still have one. As far as scoped rifles go, I prefer bolts. One of my 308's shoots ok with a 165 grain bullet loaded not much hotter than a 30/30.
I have a .30-.30 (rimfire cartridge) in a single action Savage brake down barrel. I use it on boar and doe, or when we go into the hills. Visored with a Bushnell it works already 25 years for me. In our area the .30-.30 is quite popular. Distances are 100-150 yards.
Great round. In good rifles, quite accurate. Many people are still lusting for a 788 in 30-30, a great cast bullet and jacketed shooter.
I have three 30-30s, one 94, a 336 and a 10" Contender. First two shoot good, still have not figured out the third.
Where I live, I can't legally use any of them for deer, but one or the other goes with me to the farm to use if the odd coyote jumps up. (I also have a couple of beaver that are wreaking havoc on my saplings....not legal, but I'll take a chance on them).
44 mag, got a carbine in that caliber but would take the 30-30 in a heartbeat if forced to choose between.
Am fooling with a box of 100 leverevolution bullets in the 30-30, seem to have good potential for livening it up a little.
The little lever actions just seem to carry better in the hand than bolt guns. Probably part of their appeal.
Anyhow, that round still ranks in the top ten for reloading die sales, or at least near it. Even after a hundred and six years.
I have three 30-30s, one 94, a 336 and a 10" Contender. First two shoot good, still have not figured out the third.
Where I live, I can't legally use any of them for deer, but one or the other goes with me to the farm to use if the odd coyote jumps up. (I also have a couple of beaver that are wreaking havoc on my saplings....not legal, but I'll take a chance on them).
44 mag, got a carbine in that caliber but would take the 30-30 in a heartbeat if forced to choose between.
Am fooling with a box of 100 leverevolution bullets in the 30-30, seem to have good potential for livening it up a little.
The little lever actions just seem to carry better in the hand than bolt guns. Probably part of their appeal.
Anyhow, that round still ranks in the top ten for reloading die sales, or at least near it. Even after a hundred and six years.
Spec ops Grunt
Member
30-30 was originally marketed as a bear cartridge by Winchester.
lobo9er
Member
In an old fur fish and game article from the 90's there was a true story of an individual who lived out in alaska by himeself away from everyone who survived his "cabin" (not much bigger than a 8x10 structure with a small wood burning stove) being attacked by a big brown bear by luckily putting 2 in its brain from a win 94 30-30. The author was one of the mans few friends and gave him after that incident a 300 win mag. The 94 was the mans only firearm for years until the 300 win mag. After giving him the 300 he not knowing how to thank the author gave him his 30-30 that had much honest wear. The Article was called Frank of The Black, i am pretty sure and it was my favorite fur fish and game articles. It sounds similar to a post here and maybe the same story that got turned around a bit.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
A high quality peep sight for a levergun is a whole hell of a lot cheaper than a high quality scope (and mounts) for a boltgun. I've shot MOA with buckhorns, right alongside shooters who couldn't get on paper at 50yds with their trusty scoped .30-06. Has a lot more to do with the indian than the arrow. If you can't take care of business inside 250yds with a peep sighted levergun, the problem ain't your rifle.
DM~
Member
I think you better change that to "use to be". It's not what i've seen in Alaska, and i spend 25 years living in Ak. hunting all over the state.
DM
Just for the fun-of-it, I went to http://www.handloads.com/calc/ and played around with various possible loads for the .30-30 Win.
Specifically, I wanted to test two loads, identical in all respects, and differing only in the projectile's configuration: round nose versus boattail. I allowed the computer to run the BC for each, and I entered the rest of the criteria. Too, specifically I wanted to see what would be the maximum point-blank-range for each load, neither to exceed +4.0" or -4.0". Too I wanted to remain within the accected 1,200 pound energy remaining at the max range. This is what many sports authors have maintained is minimal acceptable. Others maintain that 1,000 pounds remaining energy is sufficient.
In sum, I observed the following:
.30-30 handloads of 2409 FPS:
boattail projectiles BC = .442(bolt-action or single-shot rifle...not lever-action)
zeroed at 210 yards
achieve +3.31" at 120 yards
pass zero at 210 yards
max point of -3.68" at 250 yards
remaining energy is 1,234 pounds at 250 yards
.30-30 handloads of 2409 FPS:
round nose projectiles BC= .226 (lever-action, bolt-action or single-shot rifle)
zeroed at 205 yards
achieve +3.94" at 120 yards
pass zero at 205 yards
max point of -4.13" at 240 yards
remaining energy is 801 pounds at 240 yards
remaining energy of 1,215 pounds was 130 yards
Seems to me, that at least on paper, the .30-30 Win can reach out much farther in a bolt-action or single shot (twice as far) versus the lever-action due only to the difference in ballistic coefficient. Don't believe me, go run them.
I thought it was interesting.
Geno
Specifically, I wanted to test two loads, identical in all respects, and differing only in the projectile's configuration: round nose versus boattail. I allowed the computer to run the BC for each, and I entered the rest of the criteria. Too, specifically I wanted to see what would be the maximum point-blank-range for each load, neither to exceed +4.0" or -4.0". Too I wanted to remain within the accected 1,200 pound energy remaining at the max range. This is what many sports authors have maintained is minimal acceptable. Others maintain that 1,000 pounds remaining energy is sufficient.
In sum, I observed the following:
.30-30 handloads of 2409 FPS:
boattail projectiles BC = .442(bolt-action or single-shot rifle...not lever-action)
zeroed at 210 yards
achieve +3.31" at 120 yards
pass zero at 210 yards
max point of -3.68" at 250 yards
remaining energy is 1,234 pounds at 250 yards
.30-30 handloads of 2409 FPS:
round nose projectiles BC= .226 (lever-action, bolt-action or single-shot rifle)
zeroed at 205 yards
achieve +3.94" at 120 yards
pass zero at 205 yards
max point of -4.13" at 240 yards
remaining energy is 801 pounds at 240 yards
remaining energy of 1,215 pounds was 130 yards
Seems to me, that at least on paper, the .30-30 Win can reach out much farther in a bolt-action or single shot (twice as far) versus the lever-action due only to the difference in ballistic coefficient. Don't believe me, go run them.
I thought it was interesting.
Geno
Sheepdog1968
Member
Doubt I'm adding anything new here. I think it's due to the drop at 300 yards whereas most 308's, 30-06's are still shooting relatively flat. The reality is you probably shouldn't be shooting that far hunting anyway and most people don't have the technical skills to hit a small dinner plate size target (deer vitals) at that range.
At or under 200 yards, the 30-30 shoots flat enough for hunting with LeverEvolution rounds.
At or under 200 yards, the 30-30 shoots flat enough for hunting with LeverEvolution rounds.
TCB in TN
Member
I have a 1963, straight stock 336, wearing the same setup. I feel pretty comfortable with it out for a pretty good ways. It is fast accurate and more dependable/durable than any pc of glass.
Jason_W
Member
At 150 yards or less, the difference between most centerfire cartridges is mostly mathematical. The end result will be the same assuming the shooter does his or her part. At such distances the real question is how much bloodshot meat you want.
As for leverguns having worse ergonomics than bolt action rifles, or being less accurate:
1. I've hiked all day carrying a bolt action, and I've hiked all day carrying a levergun, and the levergun wins by a longshot. Also, to me, levers feel better when fired off hand than bolts.
2. They're as accurate as they need to be. They're designed to be light, handy mobile guns and no one who buys one should have the expectation that they're going to print dime sized groups at 200 yards. When fired offhand by someone who has practiced a little, all shots will go into a deer's or bad guy's vitals at ranges out to 125 or so yards. That's good enough for me.
As for leverguns having worse ergonomics than bolt action rifles, or being less accurate:
1. I've hiked all day carrying a bolt action, and I've hiked all day carrying a levergun, and the levergun wins by a longshot. Also, to me, levers feel better when fired off hand than bolts.
2. They're as accurate as they need to be. They're designed to be light, handy mobile guns and no one who buys one should have the expectation that they're going to print dime sized groups at 200 yards. When fired offhand by someone who has practiced a little, all shots will go into a deer's or bad guy's vitals at ranges out to 125 or so yards. That's good enough for me.
floridabou3
Member
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i love my 30-30 ive killed 5 deer with it this year 8 point 4 point t6 point 2 spikes and 3 hogs ...... it's a model 94 and i woldnt tke 1k for it right now .......
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Geno, old trick is to handload good boat tail spitzer bullets (I used 150 gr Ballistic Tips). You can get two shots in a lever gun. First, load and chamber a cartridge. Then load one (!!) cartridge in the magazine. That way no primer is touched by a tip.
sarduy
Member
+1
build an AR or an ak in 30-30, rename the round to 30RT (.30 rimmed Tactical) also change the bullet shape and you'll see...
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W.E.G.
Member
I don't think the 30-30 is a very good sniper round.
But, if I got shot in the head with one, I might change my mind.
But, if I got shot in the head with one, I might change my mind.
Al:
Yup, I've seen it done. One only got two shots, but realistically, how many shots does one needs?
All the same, me having the love affair I do with the bolt action and the .30-30, well... I saw a video on youtube of a fella that had a Turkish Mauser transformed into a .30-30 by installing a recut M700 .308 Win barrel. Looks pretty cool. Link follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-pGiRma9s
Geno
Yup, I've seen it done. One only got two shots, but realistically, how many shots does one needs?
All the same, me having the love affair I do with the bolt action and the .30-30, well... I saw a video on youtube of a fella that had a Turkish Mauser transformed into a .30-30 by installing a recut M700 .308 Win barrel. Looks pretty cool. Link follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-pGiRma9s
Geno
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