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.30 Carbine versus bear?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Yoda, Oct 7, 2008.

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  1. Yoda

    Yoda Member

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    A year of so ago, I gave my daughter in Wyoming and her husband a .30 Carbine. She recently called me and said that she "loves it, it's so accurate!" I think that means she can hit paper with it.

    Anyway, she called again and said that she goes hunting with her husband, and when she's in camp, she's afraid of bears, so she keeps the Carbine handy.

    I haven't discouraged her on this. I figure that the .30 Carbine is more powerful than any handgun, and with the longer sight radius, she can start engaging bears at longer ranges than she could with a handgun. Of course, a 15 or 30 round magazine is a big plus, too,

    I think the only downsides are that a Carbine isn't as maneuverable during close-in engagements as a handgun, and worse, she'll probably be shooting ball.

    I wonder what the concensus is regarding .30 carbine versus Black Bear, or worse, Grizzley.

    - - - Yoda

    =======================
     
  2. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    A lot of people think the .30 Carbine is a handgun round. Yes, there are handguns chambered for it. There are handguns chambered in .30-30 and .45-70 too.
    The carbine round is an intermediate powered rifle round albeit on the low end of the range.
    It is qute maneuverable in close quarters, and ball ammo isn't the best stopper; due to the design of the carbine it may or may not feed softnose or hollowpoint rounds reliably.
    Having said that; were I to need a gun for a bear, my M-1 Carbine would NOT be the gun I would choose. Wounded animals are dangerous.
    "Use enough gun." Seriously, it's an old saying, for a reason.
     
  3. ashtxsniper

    ashtxsniper Member

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    Hit it enough times and the carbine will work. Have her practice controlled rapid fire.
     
  4. OAKVILLE SHOOTER

    OAKVILLE SHOOTER Member

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    Well, I guess it is better than nothing, but I would prefer something bigger if it was me.
     
  5. thunder173

    thunder173 Member

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    She might consider ankle bells and pepper spray. (The bells for the bear to find her,..and the pepper spray for seasoning.) Seriously,..the .30 Carbine is in my opinion waaayyy to light of a round for any bear,...regardless of the number of rounds she has. If it's all you've got,...it's all you've got,....but as a shooter of 50 years,...a hunter and a dad,...I'd dissuade her from that tract,...and strongly urge my son-in-law to get her into something more adequate for the job at hand. A 30/30 would be about as low as I'd personally go for blacks,..and even that's light in my opinion,....I live where we have a lot of blacks,...and I generally carry either a Ruger SBH in .44 Magnum on my hip,....or a Winchester 94 Trapper in .44 in my hands when kicking around in their back yards.
     
  6. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    have a 30 round magazine in it.
     
  7. Jst1mr

    Jst1mr Member

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    FWIW, there are handguns out there that eclipse the .30 carbine in energy by 1.5 -2X...'course, you gotta be able to shoot 'em. Short, compact, easy to handle bear gun? Sounds like any of the big .45 lever guns....45-70, ,450 Marlin, etc.
     
  8. jnyork

    jnyork Member

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    "How can you tell grizzly bear scat?" " It's full of ankle bells" :D:D

    15 or 30 rounds of .30 carbine hits to the boiler room would certainly beat 5 rounds of .300 Mangle'em that miss. She should shoot what she can hit with.
     
  9. Fisherman_48768

    Fisherman_48768 Member

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    Several years ago I had a german shepard get into the chicken pen, 3 hits from a 30 carbine to the shoulder/chest from about 15 yds only drove the dog away. BTW I was using soft points. I haven't taken this gun out of the safe since. FWIW: the 25-06 finished the job the next day.
     
  10. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    Better for her to have a gun that she is comfortable with and loves to shoot than a more powerful gun that she won't shoot.

    That being said, a Marlin 1894c loaded up with 9 rounds of Doube Tap's 180gr. .357mag loads would be a tremendous step up in power and probably keep things in the range of acceptable recoil and light weight that she likes.
     
  11. Ol` Joe

    Ol` Joe Member

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    How many shots do some of you think a bear is going to let one take at him? You would likely be lucky to get 2-3 shots off at a attacking bear and probably not that many. The idea of a mag full of 30 carbine ammo maybe on target stopping a bear isn`t very likely and a bad hit is a bad hit no matter how many Xs you do it. The bear may die, but so could you if it took the animal more then a few seconds kick the bucket.
    I`d go with getting her a bigger gun, and getting her to practice, and knowing where to shoot. A good hit to the brain or spine will be worth a dozen to the body if the bear is close.
     
  12. M1911

    M1911 Member

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    I think it would be enough for a black bear. But not for Mr. Griz.
     
  13. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    There is no future in having close-in engagements with bears.
     
  14. Colt46

    Colt46 Member

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    Most people wouldn't use it on deer

    A lot of WWII anedotes are about the lack of performance against enemies when compared to the .30-06. Imagine what kind of effect it would have on a larger, meaner, heavier framed animal than a german soldier.
    Serious defense against toothy, fangy critters it isn't. A .357 magnum carbine would be far more capable against bears.
     
  15. greg531mi

    greg531mi Member

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    __________________


    That was one tough Puppy!!!
     
  16. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    A lot of WWII anecdotes about carbine lack of power were traced to poor marksmanship, or using the carbine at distances too great for it to be effective.
    UP CLOSE it is effective against human targets. You do atually have to HIT the target to effect it, though.

    But the posters who are telling you to get a more powerful round are still right. Bears are tougher than humans.
     
  17. texfed

    texfed Member

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    Shot placement! You can kill a bear with a .22! Would I want to try..NO! Ideal bear gun....I don't think there is any!
    My take: If you come across one and he/she looks po'd ...run, once you shoot him, he will really be po'd and your toast!
    Think about it....middle of nowhere, something up close and personal that looks like a fuzzy truck, with world class teeth and claws......you can feel the stress, when you figure it's lunch time and your in the Arby's bag! Good luck, with that, on a killing shot!:eek:

    Best thing when your in bear country is keep on a constant vigil for bear sign and when you find some ...go the other way....It owns the woods , not you!:)

    Been there , done that!:D
     
  18. thunder173

    thunder173 Member

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    +1 on Vern's comment. If they are very close,...you're gonna lose. Period.

    I have always held that a bear 50 feet or more away from me,...that's going in any other direction but toward me,...will likely live to see another day. ANYTHING closer,...or ANY sign of aggression if getting that close,...I consider that as TOO close,..and intend to deal with the situation BEFORE they can get any closer,.....IF I can,....

    Bear are beautiful creatures to watch,...at SAFE a distance. Even the lowly black bear can be extremely fast,...and extremely dangerous in bad situations. A single round,...or even multiple hits if you could shoot that fast, ....with a round that would take down a man effectively,...may not take down a bear,...especially one hauling butt to get a chunk of your butt before it dies. If anyone is willing to shoot a black bear close up with anything less than a cannon is just, ?@#%!...well,...just let me know how that works out for ya. As for me,...I'll err on the side of being careful,...and pass on that opportunity if given the choice.

    Like one of the other poster's said,..."get a bigger gun"......
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The .30 carbine is a fine, underrated round. But it fires a small bullet with very low sectional density. It's better than some things but for the same weight and handy size a .44 mag levergun firing heavy hardcast slugs would be much more useful. Even black bear would warrant more than a .30 carbine.

    I think you have a very strange idea of DLP shootings. The vast majority of times your first shot had better work. I know of some large bear taken with AR's in .223 by native hunters, but I remain very skeptical about whether the animals in question were actually presenting a threat. There's a tradition of giving the bruins a "belly ache" with an underpowered round if they get too close to a village. Plus those guys kill for a living. For the rest of us it's not the best idea to go with an underpowered semiauto.

    Also, you need to be sure you understand when you are permitted to fire. Having a set "policy" of shooting any bear inside of fifty feet is nonsense. You have to understand the circumstances and know a bit about bear language and behavior. I've been that close to fishing brown bears that could have cared less about me. As long as I didn't try to grab salmon in front of them I could have done anything I wanted. And I've nearly tripped over small black bear sows on local trails. That size black bear, esp. females, present no danger to any full grown human. Black bear sows do not defend their cubs like the brown ones do. You also need to know the local bear population and what constitutes a threat. In some areas with no brown bear the black bear get enormous and can be quite aggressive. Here they are not on the top of the food chain and tend to be less of a threat.

    Not out of a carbine. Plus, you can load the .357 with hardcast 180's and 200 grain slugs that would never function in a .30 carbine. That's the size and type of bullet you need. Speed and ft. lbs. are not as important. No bear is stopped with ft. lbs.
     
  20. highlander 5

    highlander 5 Member

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    30 carbine vs bear bear wins every time. Does Remington make a pump in 243 win? That would be a little more useful than a 30 carbine.
     
  21. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    I was issued an M2 Carbine (selective fire version of the M1) as an adviser my first tour in Viet Nam. It got wrapped around a tree, and from then on I carried a Garand I bummed from the ARVN.
     
  22. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    Only if shooting the .30 Carbine round in something belt-fed....
     
  23. geologist

    geologist Member

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    Your daughter would be much better off with a 30-30 carbine. They don't recoil much, are handy around camp, have better choices in ammo and hit a lot harder than a .30 Carbine. A Marlin 1895 in 45-70 or 450 Marlin would be an even better chice.
     
  24. Old Grump

    Old Grump Member

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    Carbine length rifle barrel with 30 Carbine factory loads drive 110 grain RN bullets at a muzzle velocity of 1,990 fps. Muzzle energy is 977 ft. lbs. At 100 yards the little bullet is traveling at 1,567 fps and still has 600 ft. lbs. of energy. It is a self-defense and small predator cartridge when expanding bullets are used but not a large game load.

    The standard 30-30 150 grain factory loads from the major ammo companies have a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2,390 fps and 1,902 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. More than double than the 30 carbine.

    Factory 357 magnum loads average a muzzle velocity of 1450 fps for the 125 grain JHP with 583 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. For the 140 grain JHP the MV is 1360 fps and the ME is 575 ft. lbs. For the 158 grain JHP the MV is 1235 fps and the ME is 535 ft. lbs. These figures are all for a 4" revolver barrel. Not a real bad gun to handle but not comfortable for a lot of people, especially if they aren't handgun shooters.

    In the 1950's the .44 Magnum factory round had a 240-grain bullet with a published velocity of 1400 fps and a muzzle energy of more than 1200 ft-lbs. Modern loads like I shoot are a bit friskier but most people can't handle them and I shot 45 ACP and 357 a lot of years before I got comfortable with it.

    Just my 2 cents but I would recommend a 30-30 as a gun more up to the job that she can still handle with relative ease and teach her to not be so spooked by bears. Be aware, be careful, but don't get too excited if you see one. Bears are neat, enjoy the show and they will generally head off on their own to find someplace less crowded. Most of the whole being in the woods scene is being able to see and enjoy the wildlife and I treasure it all, skunks not so much, don't ask.
     
  25. swampshooter

    swampshooter Member

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    Having taken a few black bears i have to go along with Cosmoline. But as it's more likely a two legged predator will be the threat, the .30 carbine is probably O.K.
     
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