308 semis, rank by accuracy

[rocinante]

I have zero experience with any of these rifles but generally hear talk about their accuracy. I know there are other factors but is this ranking about right for just accuracy? Any other rifles that should be in this list?

AR10 or other 308 AR clones

M1A, M14

Browning BAR

G3 / PTR91

Cetme

FAL

Saiga

 

[Kachok]

If it is accuracy you want forget about all of those and get an FNAR everyone I know who shoots one swears it is the best. They are heavy though.

 

[allaroundhunter]

The FNH FNAR should be on there.

With the experience I have with .308 semis here is my list. Numbers 1 and 2 are really quite close, but I will give the nod to the FNAR. I do not have as much trigger time with it as I do with the LR308 that my grandfather owns, but I have never been the slightest bit disappointed with the gun after breaking a shot.

1. FNAR

2. AR10

3. M1a

4. PTR91

5. Saiga

I do not have experience with any of the others that you have listed

 

[Sam1911]

The AR-10 variants will be the most accurate, consistently, pretty much hands-down.

Then everything else will follow in a highly subjective slug-fest propelled by loyalty to whichever guns people happen to own or like or wish they owned.

Some folks will have Saigas that will shoot into one MOA all day every day. Others will say the M14 is the most accurate of the second tier ... because the military uses it, or because of what accurized NM M14s/M1As can do. Some will consider condition of common specimens, while others will try to postulate based on theoretical accuracy of a perfect example, fresh from the factory.

If I had to make a grossly general statement, I'd say the Browning BAR (you are talking about the commercial/hunting rifle and not the old military squad automatic rifle, right?) will probably beat most of the others by a very slim margin because of being a bit more precisely made than most mil surp examples. Should be capable of 1-2 MOA or so. Some examples may be capable of better.

The average M14 supposedly edges out the average FAL by a slim margin because of bolt lockup design, but that's hotly debated. Call it a 2-3 MOA rifle, again, if not accurized, and not the Springfield Armory SOCOM-16 version which seems to exhibit poor accuracy by most accounts.

I'd probably put FALs, G3s, CETMEs at about the same rank. On average, 2-4 MOA performers.

Saigas might actually get a bit of lift by dint of the fact that they are, like the BAR, factory new rifles and have proved to be quite respectable.

All else being equal.

Of course, it is mighty hard to make "all else be equal." Feed an AR-10 cruddy surplus ammo and an M14 carefully tailored hand-loads and you'll get skewed results. And the same goes on down the line. Cherry-pick a very accurate example of any and it won't be representative of its breed (except for the AR-10s, of course).

So... YMMV!

 

[Sam1911]

The FNAR is an interesting product-improved version of the BAR, so I don't know if the OP intended to include it under the BAR heading or not.

It certainly will give an AR-10 a run for its money -- again, though, difficult to say that they are MORE accurate as there are LOTS of AR-10 type guns out there -- one .75 MOA gun shoots about as accurately as another .75 MOA gun. And some (of both) do better than that!

 

[Slamfire]

I am unfamiliar with the FNAR. I believe the M1a was the most accurate 308 service rifle, if in match configuration. As a service rifle all it had to do was shoot within 3.5 inches at acceptance to pass.

Service rifles are not target rifles though some rifles are more inherently accurate than others. Still, you will find service accuracy requirements are around 3 MOA as that is still inside the capabilities of the untrained cannon fodder who will be using the rifle in combat.

Based on what I am reading, and the accuracy of match rifles I saw built around the AR10 platform, I think the AR10 is the most accurate.

It is certainly doing well in the hands of the AMU

New 1K Service Rifle Record

Along with the great performance by USAMU Team Praslick, USAMU Service Rifle shooters coached by SFC Jeremy Mangione set a new Service Rifle record. Using .308-Caliber AR10-type rifles with 185gr Berger bullets, the Team posted a 1154-33X Aggregate, a Service Rifle Team Record.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/usamu-teams-set-1k-records-at-interservice-championships



I have know of people who tried turning the FAL into a match rifle and that action did not meet the accuracy standards they expected. So what, the FAL is an outstanding service rifle.

 

[WardenWolf]

I've heard of people getting 1" to 1.5" out of a Saiga .308. They're pretty accurate rifles. They'd be my personal choice for a .308 due to their exceptional reliability as well as being very handy. I felt a 16" Saiga .308 with skeleton stock in a store and was very impressed. Even unconverted it was quite nice. Overall they're a fair bit more compact than most .308 semi-autos, too. Definitely more so than a FAL or M1A / M14. The weight balance is good, and, to me at least, it just feels "right".

 

[siglite]

My experience is limited. In order of what I've seen, and personally shot enough to formulate an opinion, I've found three equally accurate 308 semis.

My buddy's Larue OBR.

My other buddy's self-built AR10-ish thing that's basically his own personal build of an OBR.

My,very highly tuned M14.

All are sub-minute semis. Differences in accuracy on any given day are probably going to boil down to ammo and/or the shooter. Unfortunately, none of us have less than $4000 in our rifles when you consider the cost of glass. Highly accurate Semiautos can be expensive.

 

[Robert101]

My 308 experience is very limited but my DPMS LR308 is a 1 MOA gun with non-tailored ammo. I'm not sure how the others play out but the AR10/LR308 variants get the positive nod from me.

 

[CCH71]

I have no experience with the FNAR, but currently own a few .308s in FAL/L1A1 and AR variants. I've shot, and have friends with PTRs, Cetmes and G3s. My most accurate gun in the safe is an LRT-308 SASS AR that regularly shoots sub-MOA. While I love the old FALs and L1A1s, the prior poster that stated 2-4 MOA was spot on. Same for the CETMEs I've seen. PTR/G3 was only marginally better but in the same ballpark. Word on the street is that the accuracy out of the DSA SA58 FALs was better than the FN/Enfield offerings, but I can't say by how much since I've never shot one. M1/M14s can be quite accurate, but it's not always an inherent trait and most aren't one-hole wonders out of the box. For price vs accuracy vs optional mods and improvements, I'd say an AR in .308 is the best bet. That was my conclusion in the end, though I'd still like to have a Garand just because.

Group with the SASS at 100 yds with 168gr hand loads

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

1) ARs........Sub-MOA
2) BARs......1 MOA
3) M1As......1.25 MOA
4) PTR91s...1.50 MOA
5) CETME....2.00 MOA
6) FALs......2.00 MOA
7) Saigas....2.25 MOA

It's hard to put the BAR in the same category as the rest, though. Also, it is easy and common to upgrade the M1As in accuracy, bringing them up closer to the AR level. It's also hard to put the Saiga and FAL so low. Their accuracy is plenty sufficient and I like them, they just aren't as precise.

Those estimations are based on a lot of subjectivity, too.

 

[WardenWolf]

TAT, that's for the non-.308 Saigas. The .308's usually are 1.5 MOA or better.

 

[lovethosesooners]

My FNAR is VERY accurate (it's the only .308 semi I've fired, but again, VERY accurate, soft shooting.....extremely pleased with it)

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

It certainly will give an AR-10 a run for its money --

Not all AR style .308's are equal. When you get into the GAP 10, Les Baer .308, JP PSC 12, LMT .308, and LaRue PredatOBR level rifle - you're in a whole different category. These will shoot 1/2 MOA and less with match grade ammunition.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I agree with Sam. The AR .308s are consistently the most accurate of the bunch, accounting for variants. What I mean by that, is, a pencil-barrel AR-10 carbine is not likely to out-shoot an M1A National match, but that's not an apples-to-apples comparison of platforms. You put the NM against an AR-10T (or non-Armalite equivalent), and you put the 16" carbine against the SOCOM or Scout M1A.

 

[Ditchtiger]

I must have an unusual FAL, It will out shoot my CETME and the PTR's I come across.
It's an L1A1 with a T48 receiver if anyone is wonders.

 

[Maverick223]

I would move the BAR up even with the M1A, move the M-14 down two notches, and put the G3, CETME, & FAL even with one another to end up with something like this:

1. AR-10 & clones
2. M1A & Browning BAR
3. PTR-91
4. M-14 (close to PTR-91 performance)
5. G3, CETME, FAL
6. Saiga (almost on par with those in the no. 5 slot, but enough of a difference to merit a 6th position)

 

[barnbwt]

If it is accuracy you want forget about all of those and get an FNAR everyone I know who shoots one swears it is the best.

I will swear that as well! Mine is consistently ~1MOA, factory setup, with modest glass (Konus M30).

They are heavy though.

And a FAL isn't? The FNAR has a 7075Al reciever, and synthetic stock. I think much of the weight stems from the three steel rails mounted out front (unneccesary for me), the solid rubber stock attachments (swappable for comb and LOP adjustment), long heavy barrel (on my configuration), and brick-like steel box magazines. The magazines could be used to beat down a bear, by God, and still function afterward. You won't need more than a couple.

It certainly will give an AR-10 a run for its money --

Not all AR style .308's are equal. When you get into the GAP 10, Les Baer .308, JP PSC 12, LMT .308, and LaRue PredatOBR level rifle - you're in a whole different category. These will shoot 1/2 MOA and less with match grade ammunition.

Are any of those options ~1200$ NIB? For the money and effort involved, I think the FNAR is a strong winner for factory-delivered accuracy (1MOA guaranteed). I've heard accuracy can often be improved in the FNAR by glass-bedding the optics rail, as well. I've not looked into it, but I believe they can be easily rebarrelled with a higher-grade custom tube, for folks with the chee$e.

The Winchester SXAR is a cheaper version of the same gun (light barrel) in camo, just as accurate, but without the 1MOA guarantee. Supposedly, the BAR ShorTrak stock can be modified to "sporterize" the FNAR, which may or may not reduce its weight. The other "military" offerings are probably handier; the FNAR is very front heavy with the long barrel, and the pistol grip & box mag make prone shooting...difficult. A 5- or 10-round mag and the BAR stock may resolve the latter.

Lastly, the short-stroke tappet gas system of the BAR platform needs very infrequent cleaning. Simple wipe downs of the reciever, and occaisional cleaning of the piston are all that is required. The much-maligned full break-down cleaning only needs to occur every 1000 rounds or so. Very gentle on the brass, too, for the other handloaders out there

TCB

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

TAT, that's for the non-.308 Saigas. The .308's usually are 1.5 MOA or better.

Why would the .308s be more accurate? I'm not questioning you, I just genuinely want to know why. LOL

 

[Justin]

If you want to know what 30 caliber rifles are the most accurate, seek out information on the guns being shot by people who win accuracy-based matches with them.

I can tell you that none of them are shooting Saigas, and very, very few are shooting FALs. Similar to another member upthread, once upon a time I knew a guy who dumped a lot of money into a FAL trying to turn it into a gun for High Power, and the gun cost a lot more, and was slightly less accurate than the more traditional M1As and AR10s.

As for the Saiga, skip it entirely. I don't know where WardenWolf is getting his numbers, but they're certainly not born out in my experience, nor have I ever seen a Saiga show up at anything other than the occasional local match.

 

[LKB3rd]

There was a long thread on this forum where a forum member posted numerous targets shot by his Saiga .308, and myself and others have experienced similar accuracy. It is not clear why, but they seem to have hit onto something with these .308's where they are surprisingly accurate. Over on the Saiga forums the concensus is the same.
In other calibers they seem to be more average according to reports, I can only say mine in .308 is accurate. More accurate than I am

 

[Darkbob]

I think you mean this thread by 1stmarine. It's been a long time since I have read through most of it, but I'm pretty sure he gets, or got, sub-MOA accuracy with multiple Saiga .308s. He gives lots of example groups showing that the 16" versions are very accurate.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Not all AR style .308's are equal. When you get into the GAP 10, Les Baer .308, JP PSC 12, LMT .308, and LaRue PredatOBR level rifle - you're in a whole different category. These will shoot 1/2 MOA and less with match grade ammunition.

Are any of those options ~1200$ NIB? For the money and effort involved, I think the FNAR is a strong winner for factory-delivered accuracy (1MOA guaranteed). I've heard accuracy can often be improved in the FNAR by glass-bedding the optics rail, as well. I've not looked into it, but I believe they can be easily rebarrelled with a higher-grade custom tube, for folks with the chee$e.

No - none of the rifles I listed are $1200 NIB - the original question did not include a price limitation - only a list of rifle types in order of accuracy.

Of course you think the FNAR is a "strong winner" - you're trying to make a case for a specific rifle based on price. If you have to glass bed it, change the barrel, etc. that's a lot more "effort involved" than purchasing a .5 MOA rifle to start with.

As is the usual case - you get what you pay for if you choose carefully. For you - price is a major consideration. That's fine, but the OP did not include price as a limiting factor.

The FNAR may come with a 1MOA guarantee - the Les Baer comes with a .5MOA guarantee with a test target with two 5 shot groups proving the accuracy is .5MOA or better. So, the Les Baer is nearly 2X the price and is 2X as accurate - you get what you pay for....

 

[velocette]

I have not fired many of the other rifles suggested. However I have fired many rounds through my DPMS LR 308B in the 7 years I've had it. (18" cryo'd bull barrel).
The rifle is stock out of the box, save for changing the pistol grip to a Magpul MOE+. With factory hunting ammo it shoots right at 1 moa.
With my handloads (Sierra 168 gr HPBT match bullets & IMR 4895) it shoots consistent 5 rd groups of 5/8" when I do my part. The groups shot prone with a bipod & rear bag. It has also been totally reliable with NO failures, jams etc. of any sort. IMHO, money wisely invested.

Roger

 

[Z-Michigan]

Of course you think the FNAR is a "strong winner" - you're trying to make a case for a specific rifle based on price. If you have to glass bed it, change the barrel, etc. that's a lot more "effort involved" than purchasing a .5 MOA rifle to start with.

You might want to research the FNAR a little bit more. It lists for $1500 or so but lately many dealers have been selling them for a little under $1000. It's made by FN Herstal, one of the best firearms makers on the planet, and in order to get 1 MOA performance you basically just need to take it out of the box, install a scope, and start shooting. No tuning, no glass bedding, nothing.

As for .308 ARs, there is such a huge range that I wouldn't make any generalities. Some can probably shoot 0.5 MOA, others may be lucky to do 2 MOA. The DPMS .308s with free floating barrels tend to be very accurate, at the expense of being heavy and sometimes unreliable (my LR-308B has always been accurate but I'm still dealing with reliability issues). For the combination of accuracy, reliability, and durability, you might look at the KAC SR-25, LMT MWS, and Noveske, all of which will set you back more than $2k to start.

Really, unless discussing an exact model made by one specific company, it's hard to really compare accuracy with specific claims. Some FALs do 4 MOA, while some of DSA's SA58 models can realistically do 1-1.5 MOA. One guy's G3-derivative may shoot 1 MOA while another's may struggle to do 4 MOA. Etc. etc.