357 Magnum has become pointless... for me.

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Wow. That's a fascinating thing to say and one I certainly can't even imagine. It's like saying, "Water is the worst thing you can drink" and that it's become rather "pointless." And when you reach into the refrigerator to grab a beverage, you never grab water!

Now it's a free country (fer now) and you shoot what you want, but I love the .357 Mag. As a defensive round, it excels in the 125-grain JHP. In fact, I don't think there's another handgun round out that beats it. For a backup hunting round, it also is hard to beat. With 158-grain JHPs and heavier, the bullet drills through tough muscle and bone and can be a good defense against bear, cougars and others for hunting or camping. For recreation the .38 Special is fun to shoot and it's a great gun to use for home defense. I can't think of a single use that the the .357 doesn't do well. Not just okay, but superb!

The Ruger Security-Six .357 was the first gun I ever bought and so I have a soft spot for it. I mean, it's like saying you hate fresh air, and that you don't trust any air that you can't see!

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I though I had explained it fairly well. Could I use a 357 Magnum for any of the activities I do with a revolver? Sure. But for me it is not the best choice for any of those activities and I have found cartridges that work better.

I can't effectively use 357 Magnum in a air weight snub nose revolver.

I find 357 Magnum too loud and abusive to my hearing to use in situations where I might shoot it with unprotected ears such as woods/tractor carry or when hunting.

357 Magnum is not a competitive cartridge in the games (USPSA/IDPA) I like to play with a revolver.
 
Wow - you've missed the boat. This is terribly misguided.

Why doesn't a super ball bounce forever? Because in the REAL WORLD, the collision isn't perfectly elastic.

Mixed them up I have edited the post it should have read, "Pefectly elastic collision do not exist in the real world" the rest is correct :p
 
Kinetic Energy is only conserved in elastic collisions. Bullets impacting tissue are NOT elastic collisions. Momentum remains to be conserved in inelastic collisions.

In the class of revolver cartridges, the 357mag is incredibly lack-luster. If versatility is a measurement of range of capabilities, out of all common revolver cartridges, the 357mag is a gangly kicker on a pro-football team.

For a "lack-luster" cartridge it seems to be pretty popular. Some people list the 38 spl as the most popular revolver cartridge and some list the 357 mag as the most popular.

Here's one that lists it as the #1 revolver cartridge.

https://www.gunnuts.net/2013/09/09/the-top-10-greatest-handgun-cartridges-of-all-time/

I doubt many retailers that stock ammo would know if it's the #1 seller or not but I'm pretty sure they all know they sell a lot of 357 mag.

S&W and Ruger build a lot of 357 mag revolvers so somebody must be buying them.
 
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Mixed them up I have edited the post it should have read, "Pefectly elastic collision do not exist in the real world" the rest is correct :p

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but almost everything in your post was incorrect, even after your edit. Throwing a lot of technical jargon at it to make it sound factual to a layman doesn't actually make it so:

Kinetic energy is not conserved in an elastic collision but energy is always conserved.

This is not correct.

Wikipedia page for Elastic Collisions said:
An elastic collision is an encounter between two bodies in which the total kinetic energy of the two bodies remains the same. In an ideal, perfectly elastic collision, there is no net conversion of kinetic energy into other forms such as heat, noise, or potential energy.

Georgia State University Hyper Physics page said:
A perfectly elastic collision is defined as one in which there is no loss of kinetic energy in the collision.

Then there's this:

All that kinetic energy gets converted/used/dispersed as tissues damage, plastic deformation of the bullet, hysteresis in elastic deformation, heat, vibrations, sound, etc.

This is the definition of an inelastic collision - an inelastic collision is one in which kinetic energy is lost, most typically lost as "plastic deformation of the bullet, heat, friction, vibrations, sound, etc":

Khan Academy Physics tutorial page said:
An inelastic collision is a collision in which there is a loss of kinetic energy. While momentum of the system is conserved in an inelastic collision, kinetic energy is not. This is because some kinetic energy had been transferred to something else. Thermal energy, sound energy, and material deformation are likely culprits.

And this:

Momentum is not really conserved any more than kinetic energy is.

Again, false. See above Khan Academy quote. Plus:

Georgia State University Hyper Physics Tutorial Page said:
Momentum is conserved in inelastic collisions, but one cannot track the kinetic energy through the collision since some of it is converted to other forms of energy.

And this:

If momentum was always conserved the bullet and target would never stop moving.

This is a gross mis-application of basic physics principles. You should know well enough, based on your subsequent statement copied below, the instant of the collision is independent of the momentum loss due to friction following the collision. During the collision, momentum is conserved, and then subsequently lost thereafter due to Newton's First law - an object in motion, or at rest, will remain at motion, or at rest, unless acted upon by an external force. In this case, the external force being friction. Technically, momentum isn't lost in that case, but rather, the target dragging against the Earth transfers an infinitesimally small velocity to the incredibly MASSIVE planet, with a net offset relatively similar, and opposite, to the velocity imparted by the frictional force against the shooter's feet when the bullet was fired... It's really not so complicated to follow.

Which concluded with actual science being misapplied to support a false conclusion:

The conservation of momentum in an inelastic collision is only conserved for that instant and only with the simplifying assumption friction is negligible for that instant.

This is the only factual part of your post, but your use of this evidence as non-conservation of momentum is false. Yes, during the inelastic collision, friction is typically ignored, therefore, the momentum the instant before is equal to the instant after, however, even when considering friction, momentum remains to be conserved - Friction is a mechanism for momentum transfer. In this case, the target dragging against the Earth imparts in infinitesimally small velocity on the relatively incredibly massive planet - a velocity which is technically offset by the friction between the shooter's feet against the Earth in the opposite direction when the shot was fired (and further extended to the air drag against the bullet in flight, as the resulting air velocity gradient approaches the static boundary layer effect at the surface - that far enough down the rabbit hole for you?). So in fact, Momentum remains to be conserved - it's simply transferred from the bullet, to the target, to the Earth. Just that simple.

So while the high velocity of the 357mag might yield Kinetic Energy numbers which look great on paper, it's really a misleading metric. The gap behind other magnum revolver cartridges is huge - hell, considering KE itself, the 44mag has greater KE at 100yrds than the 357mag at the muzzle. Let alone when you compare the more important metrics, like bullet weight, diameter, and momentum.
 
Well the Prius is popular but I’m not trading my truck in for one.... :)

You might if you had to drive 70 miles to work everyday. Some people just don't need a pickup..... or a 357 for that matter.

I'm not going to dump on anyone's choice because it doesn't work for me. All I'm saying here is it must work for a lot of people, nothing more.
 
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For a "lack-luster" cartridge it seems to be pretty popular.

I doubt many retailers that stock ammo would know if it's the #1 seller or not but I'm pretty sure they all know they sell a lot of 357 mag.

S&W and Ruger build a lot of 357 mag revolvers so somebody must be buying them.

^^^...a whole lotta truth to the above statements.

On most of these forums, when someone(new to shooting) asks about what caliber/platform to begin with, the majority of the replies are, get a .22 and get good with it. Easy to shoot, accurate and ammo is plentiful and cheap. It certainly is not the best man stopper and has only a small parameter for hunting, but it's what most of us started shooting with, and even tho we may not use them much anymore, we still have one or two in the safe. Same for when someone new to magnum handguns asks the same question. Folks tend to steer them away from anything bigger than .357. The reasons why? Moderate recoil(pleasant to shoot) and ammo is plentiful and cheaper than any other magnum cartridge. Then there's the .38 special thing. At my personal range, I introduce many folks to shooting handguns. I also am joined regularly by folks that have shot my handguns before. The ones that most folks ask to shoot a second time are my .357 revolvers and my 1911s. The reason, pleasant to shoot, and accuracy. Folks like to be successful and being accurate with those two platforms is easiest. As I said before, there are calibers and platforms I don;t have or want. Don't make what others want or like pointless. Just makes us different.
 
I’ve never understood how anyone can claim .357mag revolvers are “versatile.”

The only explanation I can infer is these claimants haven’t ever tried to use one for very much and are easily impressed.

I also have to take to task this idea that the .357 is extremely versatile. I think what people really mean, and I think Varminterror touched on this, is that it carries with it all the myth and legend associated with the first handgun "magnum" but you can shoot .38Spl in it instead of full steam .357 and that makes them happy.

Yes, there is a good bit that can actually be done with the cartridge but in my opinion, it is still very limited and not without its drawbacks. It is at best, at the top of its game, a good fight stopper and a marginal deer cartridge. Yes, we've all heard the myth & legend that began with Doug Wesson's exploits but even he was glad he never encountered a brown bear with the .357. No, it's not a good choice for all North American game. Not even close. Just because people have done it does not make it a good idea. Yes, it's popular but popularity doesn't mean anything. Popularity is not a factor in determining a cartridge's capability. I don't care about gun shop rhetoric or stunt hunting, which now seems to center around Razor Dobbs and the 10mm. When the evidence is tallied the .357 is really not 'that' capable. I'm not going to get too much into specifics because if I cared about versatility, real versatility, I wouldn't have 70+ revolvers but the big bores are able to do everything the .357 can do and a whole lot more. The only thing they can't do is fit into pocket sized revolvers but who is hunting moose with their .357 J-frame??? In the real world, the .44Mag and .45Colt fit into standard sized revolvers and they truly are capable of all North American game and more. That includes elk, the great bears of the north and moose that may weigh 1500lbs or more.
 
Fair enough @Varminterror I played fast and loose with the science in my rush to respond and keep it simple. Your broken up response and the forum software makes an intelligible tit for tat response difficult so you will have bear with the block of text below.

I still hold that only energy a bullet has to do work at the target is the energy it brings with it. That is kinetic energy in the case of an inert projectile,

I believe we are both in agreement that kinetic energy is not conversed (energy is conserved but in forms other than kinetic) even your Khan academy quote is very similar to my on statement in the previous post. That kinetic energy is turned into other forms of energy and work, heat, sound, and various forms of deformation of the target and bullet. This seems like the mechanism for penetration, tissue damage, and ultimately lethality (assuming the damage is done to the correct tissue) to me.

We are also both in agreement that momentum is only conserved during the collision not before or after the collision in the shooter/targets reference frame where friction is playing a role (hence all the high school physics examples are on friction-less surfaces or assuming zero-G environments). I was avoiding the whole earth/solar-system inertial reference frame discussion for simplicity as I was sort of trying to avoid this rabbit hole but here we are, how deep does it go? :D

So how exactly does the conservation of momentum play a part in penetration, tissue damage, and lethality? I can write an equation that balances energy and work, or energy and deformation. What does the equation that balances momentum with work or deformation look like? I don't think you can write those equations without energy entering into the equation.
 
You might if you had to drive 70 miles to work everyday. Some people just don't need a pickup..... or a 357 for that matter.

I'm not going to dump on anyone's choice because it doesn't work for me. All I'm saying here is it must work for a lot of people, nothing more.

I agree, I think this thread supports the idea that those of us that don't find much use for 357 Magnum are in the minority. The cartridge and revolvers chambered in it are exceptionally popular. I would be willing to bet that 357 Magnum is a plurality if not a majority of the revolvers currently in production. I started the thread just to get a feel for how small a minority I was in. Not as small as I thought but still small.
 
We are also both in agreement that momentum is only conserved during the collision not before or after the collision

No, we are not in agreement in this. My post explained your error here - friction is a transfer mechanism for momentum. Momentum is not lost after the impact, it is transferred via friction to the Earth. We can take this off-line privately if you would like to learn more about basic physics rather than continuing to derail this thread, because you are lacking a great deal of interpretation of very basic principles.

Your last "challenge" to write the momentum equation describing the collision is FAR easier than the energy equation you're describing. The momentum equation is what will yield the resulting kinetic energy, giving us insight into the energy lost due to heat, sound, and deformation. This is first year engineering school physics stuff, barely outside of the grasp of high school physics. These were the most basic types of problems to be solved to instill the principles of physics to students.
 
For a "lack-luster" cartridge it seems to be pretty popular.
Sure but the cost off ammo alone along with most people's usage can cause that.

As illustrated here, some folks don't care for the 357 per their usage. That's ok, and I don't think anyone is knocking people who choose to shoot and enjoy it.

When you load your own, and I believe you do if I remember correct, the 357 becomes less relevant due to cost. But that doesn't make it any less fun for those who do like it.

I think the theme most folks who don't care for it would state is it's fine with a reasonable application, but for some applications it just isn't the best choice despite the legendary love for it.

Many, many folks won't ever load their own ammo, and thus are not willing to pay big bore prices. Many are not willing to carry or use a gun big enough for a big bore cartridge.

So the popularity is skewed due to those facts.

I enjoy the 357 very much, but I think folks making comments, not meaning you, that it's taken every game in North America and can do anything you might need are fooling themselves into thinking it's up to every task.

I've spent a lot of time around large wild animals, and have been entirely too close to an inland grizzly. If a 357 is what I had on hand, fine. But if I showed up with a 357, I already made a bad decision.

But hey, if that's what folks like and have, then it's no skin off my back.
 
Yep, .38Spl is dirt cheap. .357 much less so and the only "cheap" big bore is the .45ACP. Handloading changes everything. Cast bullets, which I use almost exclusively, are $35/500 for the .357 and $49/500 for the .44. A difference of $1.40 per 50rds of loaded ammunition. That's a very small price to pay for plinking/practice bullets for a cartridge capable of taking Cape buffalo.

What many seem to have missed in their rush to defend their favorite cartridge and its legend, is the "for me" stipulation in the OP. I'm fairly certain no one said it was a useless cartridge, outside their own preferences. I have NEVER cared for it but have also NEVER said it was useless.
 
No, we are not in agreement in this. My post explained your error here - friction is a transfer mechanism for momentum. Momentum is not lost after the impact, it is transferred via friction to the Earth. We can take this off-line privately if you would like to learn more about basic physics rather than continuing to derail this thread, because you are lacking a great deal of interpretation of very basic principles.

Your last "challenge" to write the momentum equation describing the collision is FAR easier than the energy equation you're describing. The momentum equation is what will yield the resulting kinetic energy, giving us insight into the energy lost due to heat, sound, and deformation. This is first year engineering school physics stuff, barely outside of the grasp of high school physics. These were the most basic types of problems to be solved to instill the principles of physics to students.

I think we are in agreement more than not but...

I understand your friction transfer and looking at the world as a complete inertial reference frame, and I agree with it. Momentum is conserved we'll leave it at that for now. That still does not explain how momentum becomes work or deformation of the target or bullet material in the absence of energy. For a mass projectile you cannot have one in the absence of the other. If is has momentum is has kinetic energy and vice versa. If the momentum equation is simple write it here, never mind I will.

The energy of motion is the classic kinetic energy and is the integral of the momentum change over time and if we assume constant mass become E=1/2 M v^2

Work (energy) is the integral of force over distance. Assuming constant force W=F d

Energy stored in elastic deformation is the the integral of the stiffness times the displacement integrated over the displacement. Assuming constant stiffness E = 1/2 K x^2 (this gets much more complicated in plastic deformation as some energy goes into damage of the material but the equations are still energy based)

The change in Heat Energy in an object is the objects mass * thermal capacity* the change in temperature. Q=m*C*deltaT

The energy in sound is a combination of its instantaneous potential and kinetic energy at a given point in the material and this editor would make a mess of that integral.

How does the conservation of momentum equation Mb0 vbo + Mt0 vt0 = Mb1 vb1 + Mt1 vt1 correspond to any of the effects we see on the bullet or target, deformation, heat, sound, penetration, etc. What are the equations that balances M v to any of the above effects?

b = bullet
t = target
0 = before collision
1 = after collision

If we use the the the conservation of momentum equations above and then calculate the kinetic energy of each object before and after the collision we have a gross sum of the kinetic energy lost in the collision ( the lost of kinetic energy is used to calculated the coefficient of restitution of the collisions) but that energy goes many many places. (as I believe we both agree). Some of that energy is useless to our purpose, sound, elastic deformation, heat (assuming not enough heat to damage the target), some of that energy has done useful work for us, penetration/damage totissue, bullet expansion allowing more tissue to be contacted etc.

Again you cannot have momentum without kinetic energy or vise versa. But when you get into the nitty gritty of figuring out how all the damage to the target and bullet happened energy is the currency of exchange not momentum.
 
Yes, it's popular but popularity doesn't mean anything.

Doesn't mean anything to who? Firearms manufacturers? Ammo manufacturers? Retailers? Reloaders?

Doesn't mean anything to you. I think that is what you meant to say.

Popularity is not a factor in determining a cartridge's capability

Capability for what? Self defense? Games? Hunting? Rec shooting. Capability means many things to different people. Hunting seems to be your focus because it's in just about every one of your posts. Not many people hunt with handguns so hunting may be a very small segment of the revolver shooting crowd.

I shoot at a private range with 500 members. I find 357 brass in the bucket from time to time. That tells me that somebody is using it for recreational shooting. How many 44 mag or 45 Colt cases have I found in the brass bucket in the 5 years I've been shooting there? ZERO.

I shoot there every week and to be honest I don't think I've ever seen anyone shoot a 44 Mag there. We have lots of CAS shooters also but most of them are shooting 357 mag if they shoot a mag. It must be a capable cartridge for them or they wouldn't be shooting it.

Not everyone has 70 revolvers. That's why a lot of them have a 357. It covers a lot of bases.
 
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Doesn't mean anything to who? Firearms manufacturers? Ammo manufacturers? Retailers? Reloaders?

Doesn't mean anything to you. I think that is what you meant to say.



Capability for what? Self defense? Games? Hunting? Rec shooting. Capability means many things to different people. Hunting seems to be your focus because it's in just about every one of your posts. Not many people hunt with handguns so hunting may be a very small segment of the revolver shooting crowd.

I shoot at a private range with 500 members. I find 357 brass in the bucket from time to time. That tells me that somebody is using it for recreational shooting. How many 44 mag or 45 Colt cases have I found in the brass bucket in the 5 years I've been shooting there? ZERO.

I shoot there every week and to be honest I don't think I've ever seen anyone shoot a 44 Mag there. We have lots of CAS shooters also but most of them are shooting 357 mag if they shoot a mag. It must be a capable cartridge for them or they wouldn't be shooting it.
Okay, so it is very capable of going "bang" and sending a bullet downrange. If that is the extent of your needs, then it is fully sufficient. As is the .22LR.
 
Doesn't mean anything to who? Firearms manufacturers? Ammo manufacturers? Retailers? Reloaders?

Doesn't mean anything to you. I think that is what you meant to say.



Capability for what? Self defense? Games? Hunting? Rec shooting. Capability means many things to different people. Hunting seems to be your focus because it's in just about every one of your posts. Not many people hunt with handguns so hunting may be a very small segment of the revolver shooting crowd.

Well the sweeping statement was made that the .357 has taken every animal in North America and that is what both Craig and I responded to.
 
Moving up to bigger, tougher animals you should probably opt for more.
Of course, and i prefer a bigger bore for most any task. My point was 357 mag isnt weak by any stretch.
And yes, i understand there were far more cases of a 357 being a stopper because there were a lot of them on the street. That doesnt negate the fact that it works and has worked for a long time. Fact is cartridges that do not fit a nitch disappear,many rounds common 50 years ago are gone or nearly gone today.
If versatility is a measurement of range of capabilities, out of all common revolver cartridges, the 357mag is a gangly kicker on a pro-football team.
Not really, what is the 327 fed magnum then? How about the lesser calibers that evolved into it, those seem a bit gangly.
The 9mms and 40s the government and local agencies decided are sufficient for human threat pale in comparison. Thats not an opinion. I understand you dont like the 357 mag but it still loves you, hes still potent even if you dont agree.
 
Of course, and i prefer a bigger bore for most any task. My point was 357 mag isnt weak by any stretch.
And yes, i understand there were far more cases of a 357 being a stopper because there were a lot of them on.


In the twisted paradigm that is my world, it is weak.

The fact that there were a lot on the street versus other calibers means the data is skewed in its favor. So in the best case scenario the studies on one-shot stops are incomplete.
 
But when you get into the nitty gritty of figuring out how all the damage to the target and bullet happened energy is the currency of exchange not momentum.

At this point, I've lost interest in your misconceptions of basic science. The rest of your post is largely accurate, but then you take this erroneous left turn at Albuquerque, and I just can't be made to care any longer. No matter how far you misconstrue principles of physics you've cited above, you're still not understanding the most basic principles of collisions - because you're walking RIGHT UP TO THE EDGE, and then turning away.

The momentum is conserved, whether you are capable of understanding the mechanism or not - the resulting momentum of the target allows you to back calculate, exactly as you described, the change in kinetic energy. Momentum and kinetic energy are both built out of nothing more than mass and velocity, so it is true, you can't have one without the other, but in no way does that mean both are conserved in all collisions. You've described yourself all of the mechanisms in which kinetic energy is NOT efficiently transferred to a target during an impact, but then turn around and cite them as reasons the collisions aren't inelastic - in other words, you're describing how and why bullet-target collisions are inelastic, then claiming they are not. You can't explain why the sky is blue, then claim that as evidence the sky is actually red. Your left hand turn into work and now speaking in terms of "currency" is a fun diversion, but again, you're misapplying simple science. Yes, work is the measure of energy transfer - so effectively, the conservation of momentum tells us the beginning and end state kinetic energies, telling us the resulting work done - kinetic energy transferred - which leaves a net offset, the sum total of energy which was not transferred from the bullet to the target, but rather "lost" as heat, sound, deformation, etc.
 
Not really, what is the 327 fed magnum then?
It's a high speed pocket rocket that uses velocity to hopefully overcome a lack of bullet mass, meant for self defense against humans. It's also a good small game cartridge.

It's good for what it's meant to do. Push it too far with bigger threats, and the same notions apply as with 357.

I'd like to pick one up at some point.
 
The Handgun Stopping Power book (1st one) had the .357 mag w 125 as the best fight stopper.
Close behind was the .44 mag. LOL
 
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