.357 or .45?
- Thread starter TX1911fan
- Start date
- Status
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
Looking at Buffalo Bore's offerings their 357 Mag 180gr Hard Cast LFN is running 1400 fps. looks mighty nice for penetrating thick skin and heavy muscle. Of course they load some hot 45 ACP +P too. www.buffalobore.com
357
The 357 runs about 35kpsi, the 45, only 22.5kpsi. So pick the 357, it offers more potential and I've read of many folks routinely getting 800 ft-lbs of energy from them. That is unheard of out of 45ACP. If your running a 45LC, then that's a different matter.
But heck, consider it an excuse to go buy yourself a new pistol, like the 500S&W if you like abuse. If not so much, then the 454 Casull would be a good option too. A 357 or a 45ACP are not going to be near big enough for anything in Alaska that is big enough or mean enough to confront you, namely bear. 357 is probably fine on cougars and wolves, should you encounter them.
However, your rifle will be key, not the sidearm. Like my niece who just went over to Afghanistan said. "....If I'm down to my sidearm, I'm F****D!!!" Hopefully not the case with wild game, but if you cannot stop a bear with your rifle, the peashooter is only going to weigh you down as your trying to ourtun your hunting partners.
jeepmor
The 357 runs about 35kpsi, the 45, only 22.5kpsi. So pick the 357, it offers more potential and I've read of many folks routinely getting 800 ft-lbs of energy from them. That is unheard of out of 45ACP. If your running a 45LC, then that's a different matter.
But heck, consider it an excuse to go buy yourself a new pistol, like the 500S&W if you like abuse. If not so much, then the 454 Casull would be a good option too. A 357 or a 45ACP are not going to be near big enough for anything in Alaska that is big enough or mean enough to confront you, namely bear. 357 is probably fine on cougars and wolves, should you encounter them.
However, your rifle will be key, not the sidearm. Like my niece who just went over to Afghanistan said. "....If I'm down to my sidearm, I'm F****D!!!" Hopefully not the case with wild game, but if you cannot stop a bear with your rifle, the peashooter is only going to weigh you down as your trying to ourtun your hunting partners.
jeepmor
Jim March
Member
There's a page somewhere about bear defense showing how the skull is really constructed. Keith something...ah, his site is down but the "Internet Wayback Machine" tells all!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010609113802rn_2/members.nbci.com/keithrogan/
http://web.archive.org/web/20010616025723/members.nbci.com/keithrogan/artillery.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010215034522/members.nbci.com/keithrogan/guns.html
If this information is correct, then...well...his point seems to be that NO handgun (perhaps not counting the really extreme 500S&W) will do enough damage to slow a big bear short of a headshot. And since anything reasonable can get into the bear's skull (as long as you don't shoot too high, see the pic and text on that point at Keith's old page) the GP100 isn't sounding like a bad choice with something like the 180 hardcasts or maybe even a 158XTP loaded hot enough.
This may vary for black bears, where a stout 44Mag or above to the shoulder or even chest might do enough damage to get his attention, and as a smaller faster target a headshot is more difficult. It may sound counter-intuitive but you may be better off with a bigger gun for black bear than for Griz!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010609113802rn_2/members.nbci.com/keithrogan/
http://web.archive.org/web/20010616025723/members.nbci.com/keithrogan/artillery.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010215034522/members.nbci.com/keithrogan/guns.html
If this information is correct, then...well...his point seems to be that NO handgun (perhaps not counting the really extreme 500S&W) will do enough damage to slow a big bear short of a headshot. And since anything reasonable can get into the bear's skull (as long as you don't shoot too high, see the pic and text on that point at Keith's old page) the GP100 isn't sounding like a bad choice with something like the 180 hardcasts or maybe even a 158XTP loaded hot enough.
This may vary for black bears, where a stout 44Mag or above to the shoulder or even chest might do enough damage to get his attention, and as a smaller faster target a headshot is more difficult. It may sound counter-intuitive but you may be better off with a bigger gun for black bear than for Griz!
30-06 lover
Member
Side arms are basically worthless when it comes to big bears. If you mean just in case for humans...45. For bears...870 shotty.
-Mike
-Mike
BrainOnSigs
Member
Glock 20 (10mm).
Quote below from this article:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/border/skelton_0304/
"Thankfully, fans of the 10mm are still around. One of them is Ted Nugent, who fancies the Glock 20. Glock is one of the few manufacturers still offering guns chambered for the 10mm. Ted has shot literally thousands of rounds through his Glocks with no problems and firmly believes, as I do, that the 10mm is undeserving of its current fate.
Ted, while carrying his 10mm as backup on a South African safari, finished a Cape buffalo with a 180-grain Cor-Bon that completely penetrated the beast's neck vertebrae. He has taken elk, caribou, bear, hundreds of hogs, rams, oryx, warthog, eland and zebra with his Glock 20."
The 10 mm Auto cartridge operates at very high pressure in comparison to other defensive pistol cartridges, such as the .38 Special or the .45 ACP. Its maximum average pressure of 36,000psi is closely comparable to that of the .357 Magnum or the .44 Magnum, allowing it to develop true "magnum" velocities. Original loading was a 200 grain (13 g) bullet at 1200 ft/s (366 m/s), yielding 635 ft·lbf (861 J) of kinetic energy at the muzzle. Today, Cor-Bon/Glaser lists a 180 gr "Hunter" loading of 1320 ft/s and 696 ft·lbf (943 J). This is nearly twice the energy of a .45 ACP. Double Tap Ammunition offers a 135 gr loading at 1600 ft/s producing an astonishing 767 ft·lbf (1040 J) of energy!
BTW: Save the last round for yourself if it's a big brown.........
Quote below from this article:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/border/skelton_0304/
"Thankfully, fans of the 10mm are still around. One of them is Ted Nugent, who fancies the Glock 20. Glock is one of the few manufacturers still offering guns chambered for the 10mm. Ted has shot literally thousands of rounds through his Glocks with no problems and firmly believes, as I do, that the 10mm is undeserving of its current fate.
Ted, while carrying his 10mm as backup on a South African safari, finished a Cape buffalo with a 180-grain Cor-Bon that completely penetrated the beast's neck vertebrae. He has taken elk, caribou, bear, hundreds of hogs, rams, oryx, warthog, eland and zebra with his Glock 20."
The 10 mm Auto cartridge operates at very high pressure in comparison to other defensive pistol cartridges, such as the .38 Special or the .45 ACP. Its maximum average pressure of 36,000psi is closely comparable to that of the .357 Magnum or the .44 Magnum, allowing it to develop true "magnum" velocities. Original loading was a 200 grain (13 g) bullet at 1200 ft/s (366 m/s), yielding 635 ft·lbf (861 J) of kinetic energy at the muzzle. Today, Cor-Bon/Glaser lists a 180 gr "Hunter" loading of 1320 ft/s and 696 ft·lbf (943 J). This is nearly twice the energy of a .45 ACP. Double Tap Ammunition offers a 135 gr loading at 1600 ft/s producing an astonishing 767 ft·lbf (1040 J) of energy!
BTW: Save the last round for yourself if it's a big brown.........
HankB
Member
It wouldn't surprise me if a GP100 held up better to a steady diet of maximum-performance Buffalo Bore ammo than a 10mm Glock or a 10mm 1911.
BrainOnSigs
Member
A GP100 will hold up even if you use it to pound nails. Sturdy is an understatement.
I do like 15+1 of 10mm in a G20 though..........fully loaded and it still weighs less than an empty 4" or 6" GP100.
makarovnik
Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,678
.357 mag
You'll need at least a .357 magnum to penetrate a bear's skull. The .45acp is a good manstopper but I think the .357mag still has the advantage by a couple of percentage points as a one shot stopper. It does take a longer than 2" barrel though to really get a full powder burn from the .357mag.
You'll need at least a .357 magnum to penetrate a bear's skull. The .45acp is a good manstopper but I think the .357mag still has the advantage by a couple of percentage points as a one shot stopper. It does take a longer than 2" barrel though to really get a full powder burn from the .357mag.
MachIVshooter
Member
Whichever one you choose, file the front sight off..................
Blacklabman
Member
I am by far not expert, but would suggest a heavier(bigger caliber) revolver.
Maybe the new 4" S&W 500 for carry.
I have a chance to go on a combo hunt to Alaska for Dall Sheep and Caribou.
The guide carried his rifle to bat cleanup if neeeded, on the Sheep hunt.
In the lowland's while Caribou hunting, the guide left his rifle and actually carried two weapons. One was a 5.5 Redhawk with 330gr Garrett Hammerheads, and the other was a 18" 870 with extended magazine loaded with slugs.
This was wake up call to me, about the dangers that are out there.
The guide said, that some Brown Bears reach 1,000 lbs. They are magnificent creatures. After watching some thru the bino's and spotting scope, seeing their size and speed, they are not an animal, I ever want to deal with.
Maybe the new 4" S&W 500 for carry.
I have a chance to go on a combo hunt to Alaska for Dall Sheep and Caribou.
The guide carried his rifle to bat cleanup if neeeded, on the Sheep hunt.
In the lowland's while Caribou hunting, the guide left his rifle and actually carried two weapons. One was a 5.5 Redhawk with 330gr Garrett Hammerheads, and the other was a 18" 870 with extended magazine loaded with slugs.
This was wake up call to me, about the dangers that are out there.
The guide said, that some Brown Bears reach 1,000 lbs. They are magnificent creatures. After watching some thru the bino's and spotting scope, seeing their size and speed, they are not an animal, I ever want to deal with.
MCgunner
Member
Personally, I'll take the .357 on humans over the .45 every time in the outdoors from a service sized firearm. Ranges are likely to be longer, .357 revolvers typically are more accurate. I wouldn't worry about getting a bigger caliber. If a big bear threatens, you're going to need your rifle.
I consider the .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag, and .45 colt revolvers 40 ounces or less to be among the best sidearms for carry afield, but they do have their limitations in Alaska. I don't understand why anyone would want to carry a sidearm much over 40 ounces. The gun gets that big, you're better off carrying a rifle on a sling. And, if you're hunting, that means you'll have a rifle with you, so why would you want to burden yourself with a .500 Smith? I'd just take the .357 in case you get away from your rifle in camp and need something, but that's the only reason I can think of for even totin' a sidearm up there when you're hunting. I do always like to carry a sidearm when I'm hunting, though, a light, powerful revolver in the above calibers. Only calibers I have, though, are .357 and .45 Colt. Don't have a .44 or .41. They are good calibers, though. Much bigger than .45 Colt/.44 mag and you start getting a gun that is just simply too heavy on the hip. Something the size of my 4 5/8 inch blackhawk or the S&W Mountain gun are about as heavy as I wanna tote all day hunting in rough country, rifle and day pack with me.
I consider the .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag, and .45 colt revolvers 40 ounces or less to be among the best sidearms for carry afield, but they do have their limitations in Alaska. I don't understand why anyone would want to carry a sidearm much over 40 ounces. The gun gets that big, you're better off carrying a rifle on a sling. And, if you're hunting, that means you'll have a rifle with you, so why would you want to burden yourself with a .500 Smith? I'd just take the .357 in case you get away from your rifle in camp and need something, but that's the only reason I can think of for even totin' a sidearm up there when you're hunting. I do always like to carry a sidearm when I'm hunting, though, a light, powerful revolver in the above calibers. Only calibers I have, though, are .357 and .45 Colt. Don't have a .44 or .41. They are good calibers, though. Much bigger than .45 Colt/.44 mag and you start getting a gun that is just simply too heavy on the hip. Something the size of my 4 5/8 inch blackhawk or the S&W Mountain gun are about as heavy as I wanna tote all day hunting in rough country, rifle and day pack with me.
KIMBER45TLE
Member
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2006
- Messages
- 92
Alaska
If you step off the plane with a 45 strapped on and say it's for bear, the Alaskan's will have you committed. The 357 in a heavily constructed bullet is better, but like someone else said, save the last bullet for yourself, as I hear it's NO fun being eaten alive. Minimum caliber I would take would be the 44 magnum, but even still, if you run into a brownie already hyped up on adrenelin, you're going to wish you had a LAWS rocket. If you are dead set on carrying a handgun in the bush up there, look at the 460 or the 500.
The 45 won't even penetrate the fat on a brown or black bear. I doubt seriously it would penetrate the two inches of bone to reach the brain. The 357 would do this with a heavily constructed Barnes, but can you shoot a charging bear with pin point accuracy traveling at 20 mph in the head.
Having spent a few days, weeks and months in Alaska, and living in British Columbia, Canada, for two years, I highly recommend you invest in a twelve gauge with slugs. The other poster who suggested you have the front site removed was also correct. That will make it less painful when they remove it from your stern in the hospital.
The Alaskans have a name for people like this. It's Chichacko. It ain't in Websters.
If you step off the plane with a 45 strapped on and say it's for bear, the Alaskan's will have you committed. The 357 in a heavily constructed bullet is better, but like someone else said, save the last bullet for yourself, as I hear it's NO fun being eaten alive. Minimum caliber I would take would be the 44 magnum, but even still, if you run into a brownie already hyped up on adrenelin, you're going to wish you had a LAWS rocket. If you are dead set on carrying a handgun in the bush up there, look at the 460 or the 500.
The 45 won't even penetrate the fat on a brown or black bear. I doubt seriously it would penetrate the two inches of bone to reach the brain. The 357 would do this with a heavily constructed Barnes, but can you shoot a charging bear with pin point accuracy traveling at 20 mph in the head.
Having spent a few days, weeks and months in Alaska, and living in British Columbia, Canada, for two years, I highly recommend you invest in a twelve gauge with slugs. The other poster who suggested you have the front site removed was also correct. That will make it less painful when they remove it from your stern in the hospital.
The Alaskans have a name for people like this. It's Chichacko. It ain't in Websters.
MCgunner
Member
You think you're going to get a chance to get off more'n a couple of rounds at a charging bear, much less a reload???? ROFLMFAO! This ain't IDPA here. I routinely carry single actions outdoors, more strength, heavier calibers are more important than tacticool in the real world. Accuracy and power trumps firepower every time. In the end, it'll be up to the shooter and how cool he is in the heat of battle. Head hits will be important with any handgun.
TonyB
Member
MachIV:you beat me to it......
mpmarty
Member
Alaska worries
Reminds me of the guy that wrote to one of the gun mags many years ago, went something like:
" I'm gonna go to Alaska to fish the rivers what load should I carry in my six inch 357 magnum?"
The response was "any load you like as long as it is using home cast bullets lubed with bacon grease; that way when you throw down the empty six shooter maybe the bear will stop long enough to sniff it for you to find a tall tree".
Marty in Oregon
Reminds me of the guy that wrote to one of the gun mags many years ago, went something like:
" I'm gonna go to Alaska to fish the rivers what load should I carry in my six inch 357 magnum?"
The response was "any load you like as long as it is using home cast bullets lubed with bacon grease; that way when you throw down the empty six shooter maybe the bear will stop long enough to sniff it for you to find a tall tree".
Marty in Oregon
KIMBER45TLE
Member
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2006
- Messages
- 92
Consider This
A brown bear can out run a quarter horse out of the starting blocks. He's probably 700lbs minimum, as he comes for you, his head is bobbing up and down, side to side, can you consistantly hit a softball rolling AT you at twenty mph? Ad to that his adrenelan is flowing, and yours is too. The Alaskan wilderness is littered with the remains of people who've not had enough gun if any at all. Timothy Treadwell, a supposedly EXPERT on grizzly/browns/kodiaks met his demise along with his girlfriends due to his stupidity. If you fell to believe me, PM me and I will give you my buddies email address so you can write to him. I've been from Sitka, Alaska, to St. Lawrence Island, to Adak, to Pt. Barrow, with a few other fine places in between. Hiked and camped the Kenia Pennesula and canoed the Matinuska and Kenia rivers. A handgun should not be your primary weapon of choice.
A brown bear can out run a quarter horse out of the starting blocks. He's probably 700lbs minimum, as he comes for you, his head is bobbing up and down, side to side, can you consistantly hit a softball rolling AT you at twenty mph? Ad to that his adrenelan is flowing, and yours is too. The Alaskan wilderness is littered with the remains of people who've not had enough gun if any at all. Timothy Treadwell, a supposedly EXPERT on grizzly/browns/kodiaks met his demise along with his girlfriends due to his stupidity. If you fell to believe me, PM me and I will give you my buddies email address so you can write to him. I've been from Sitka, Alaska, to St. Lawrence Island, to Adak, to Pt. Barrow, with a few other fine places in between. Hiked and camped the Kenia Pennesula and canoed the Matinuska and Kenia rivers. A handgun should not be your primary weapon of choice.
aufevermike
Member
Please use this trip as an excuse to buy yourself a new (more powerful) weapon. Anything from 44 mag with the brass bear loads to the 500 S&W will give you a peace of mind. You don't say exactly where you are hunting but it is greatly assumed that anywhere in AK is bear country. I live here on the Kenai Peninsula and have hunted and hiked and have never had to fire at one but just a few weeks ago a little over a mile from my house 2 people had to put one down due to a charge. And just last year a jogger, again less thana amile form my house, got mauled for his second time in his life....... he should play the lotteries. Anyway, I used to carry my Anaconda until I decided to retire it, which gave me the excuse to buy the S&W 500..... I love this and I love to shoot it, it really is fun and I don't find it punishing even having small hands.
But really all you need is a .22 pistol........ shoot your guide in the leg so you can run faster than him.
Good luck
But really all you need is a .22 pistol........ shoot your guide in the leg so you can run faster than him.
Good luck
I appreciate the responses here, but I have to say, a common THR phenomonen has occurred. I asked a simple question about taking a sidearm to Alaska. NOWHERE did I state I wanted it for bear, nor did I state that I was only going to go armed with a handgun. Notwithstanding, many of the responses here (1) assume I am going to hunt bear with handgun, and (2) that I am not taking anything else. I lack information on the best caliber to take into the woods "just in case". I do not lack the brain power to know that shooting at a bear with a .357 or any other handgun for that matter is AT BEST a last ditch effort (I grew up in Southern Alberta and spent my life camping in the Rockies. I know all about bears). That said, if I am being charged by a bear and have no other options, I'd prefer to be armed, wouldn't you? Some of the respones above seem to suggest I am stupid to even consider taking a handgun into the back country. What gives?
Oh, so you are a goddamned Canadian, eh?
Seriously, a .357 with appropriate bullets for penetration seems like the better choice, and the GP100 is a no-maintenance gun for the outdoors -- it's stainless, isn't it? That'd be my choice.
Just don't shoot .38 Specials at a bear. It'll just irritate the animal.
Seriously, a .357 with appropriate bullets for penetration seems like the better choice, and the GP100 is a no-maintenance gun for the outdoors -- it's stainless, isn't it? That'd be my choice.
Just don't shoot .38 Specials at a bear. It'll just irritate the animal.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
