Ninja42
Member
Load the last chamber with a hot .357 mag. If four .38 rounds fail to solve your problem, the risk of damaging your hearing may just be the least of your problems.
38/357 question (possible can of worms)
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moooose102
Member
i can tell you from experience, the muzzle flash of a .357 mag WILL be blinding! i would load it with a GOOD personal defense low flash 38 special round. if somebody make one in +P that's even better. but a normal 357 at night is BAD juju. fortunately, i never had to shoot @ a b.g. inside my home. but i did have a 300 yard range at one time, way out in B.F.E. . and a coule of times, just screwing around, i did a little shooting @ night. if you shoot with a full .357 load in the dark, you had better pray that the first shot KILLS him in his tracks. otherwise, you are going to be in serious trouble!
AStone
Member
Brian Dale
Member
{If anybody responds with a wisecrack about "thinking of the CHILLLLLDREN," I'll come and put salt in your sugar bowl when you're not looking}
Fire a .357 Mag indoors in a defensive situation (without hearing protection) and you'll take hearing damage. It's substantially louder than the .38 Spl. and the .38+P. If you can stop the threat without trashing your and your families' ear drums, I recommend it.
I have .38+Ps in my home defense revolver.
Fire a .357 Mag indoors in a defensive situation (without hearing protection) and you'll take hearing damage. It's substantially louder than the .38 Spl. and the .38+P. If you can stop the threat without trashing your and your families' ear drums, I recommend it.
I have .38+Ps in my home defense revolver.
AStone
Member
Me, too.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Nate C,
I have to disagree. If you are involver in what you call a "deadly force" situation you will want every advantage you can get. Have you ever seen the flash produced from a .357 Magnum round fired in a dark bedroom? Have you ever heard how loud a .357 Magnum round is in a small enclosed space without hearing protection? If you are surprised in your home at night you will probably be disorientated to begin with because you were asleep. There's no reason to add the difficulty of defending yourself and your family by squeezing off a Magnum round in your bedroom. A .38 Special +P or .44 Special round will be more than enough to put the bad guy down and still be able to make a follow up shot if necessary. The difference between the flash/report produced by a .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum is much more than you may think.
My revolver is loaded with Remington 158gr LSWC/HP .38 Special +P rounds for home defense. (FBI Load) I also have a shotgun nearby loaded with 00 Buck if things get really hairy. I really wouldn't want to fire that indoors either without hearing protection.
AStone
Member
Arch, I hope you'll trust that I write this with much respect for you.
That typo - involver - is just elegant:
A fine convolution of "involved" and "revolver".
Great stuff!
Nem
Heck yes magnums are loud! I concede that the magnum report/flash is greater than the .38 special or +P. However, in the context of a darkened, silent room in the dead of night, I think the muzzle flash and report from pretty much any round will be substantial enough to be disorienting. Your night vision will be gone after the first shot---of whatever round being fired. In an adrenaline-charged situation auditory exclusion is likely to mute or at least mitigate the report as the shooter perceives it.
Will it be frightening to the wife/kids? Yep. Will it potentially have negative impact on hearing? Possibly, but that is still preferable to the potential consequences of victimization (such as being dead).
I still contend that in a life-or-death situation, the muzzle flash or report from the gun being fired should be a secondary concern. Primary concern should be to stop the threat and protect me and mine.
Now, I think that overpenetration is a very legitimate concern for which one could argue .38 over magnum. And a good argument against using double-ought in a scattergun in a residential setting.
Will it be frightening to the wife/kids? Yep. Will it potentially have negative impact on hearing? Possibly, but that is still preferable to the potential consequences of victimization (such as being dead).
I still contend that in a life-or-death situation, the muzzle flash or report from the gun being fired should be a secondary concern. Primary concern should be to stop the threat and protect me and mine.
Now, I think that overpenetration is a very legitimate concern for which one could argue .38 over magnum. And a good argument against using double-ought in a scattergun in a residential setting.
I fired my .357 Blackhawk in a dark hallway at 1:00 a.m. five nights ago (long story). I didn’t even really notice a flash, none of the neighbors heard a thing, and I had an obnoxious ringing in my ears until about noon the day after. The only damage done was to my dang house.
After that experience I feel fine using the .357 for SD.
After that experience I feel fine using the .357 for SD.
loneviking
Member
I wouldn't worry too much about hearing damage and flash blindness from a heavy load. Adrenaline protects us in a 'fight or flight' situation. I fired 2 rds. of 12 ga./00 buck under the eaves of a house one very cold night to stop a crazed racoon. Never noticed the flash or the bang, and didn't have any ringing the next day. The .357 is only about 10 decibels louder than a 12 gauge...
Still, semi-jacketed lead hollowpoints, with 5.3 grains of Unique pushing a 158 gr. bullet out of a 38 spcl. case does do a fine job of getting a targets attention!
Still, semi-jacketed lead hollowpoints, with 5.3 grains of Unique pushing a 158 gr. bullet out of a 38 spcl. case does do a fine job of getting a targets attention!
Brian Dale
Member
Sorry, loneviking, the physical damage is real even if we don't notice it right away. It adds up, too. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I've had some hearing loss, and my Dad's hearing loss was worse (federal LEO and gun guy; wore no hearing protection for decades because nobody did back then).
The hearing damage in a particular situation might be small sometimes, but it's real.
The hearing damage in a particular situation might be small sometimes, but it's real.
AStone
Member
OK, time for review.
When you go to the range to shoot your {insert caliber here},
carry your hearing protection gear.
But at home, when you need to press said caliber into action
to protect said home against invaders, don't worry too much
about finding your hearing protection gear before
shooting invaders because deaf is better than dead.
Does .357 mag make more "bang" than .38 spl? Yes.
Would I use .357 mag at home against invaders
even if it means hearing loss but saving my life? Yes.
Context, people. Context.
Just my 2c.
When you go to the range to shoot your {insert caliber here},
carry your hearing protection gear.
But at home, when you need to press said caliber into action
to protect said home against invaders, don't worry too much
about finding your hearing protection gear before
shooting invaders because deaf is better than dead.
Does .357 mag make more "bang" than .38 spl? Yes.
Would I use .357 mag at home against invaders
even if it means hearing loss but saving my life? Yes.
Context, people. Context.
Just my 2c.
Brian Dale
Member
Ummm...If I write one thing and Nematocyst writes another, it's best to pay attention to what he writes. Please forgive my tangent, loneviking.
AStone
Member
Not true in general.
Each situation is unique.
Each person must decide
each case for themselves.
It's all about opinion,
and I'm just expressing mine
like everyone else here ...
How much penetration do you need in order to reach the vitals of a human being with a bullet? A .38Spl+P will penetrate that far and more, assuming good bullet construction. The FBI load is a good example. What are you really gaining by using a .357 Mag in a HD situation over the .38Spl+P?
IMO, a low pressure cartridge that you can shoot well just might be better than a high pressure cartridge that is slightly harder to control, again assuming the bullet is capable of inflicting sufficient damage. If I felt the .38Spl+P wasn't enough I'd go to a .44Spl or .45ACP as opposed to a magnum.
But like Nem said, each of us has to make that decision based on what we think is the best combination of cartridge and launching platform for our personal situation. It's good to have choices.
IMO, a low pressure cartridge that you can shoot well just might be better than a high pressure cartridge that is slightly harder to control, again assuming the bullet is capable of inflicting sufficient damage. If I felt the .38Spl+P wasn't enough I'd go to a .44Spl or .45ACP as opposed to a magnum.
But like Nem said, each of us has to make that decision based on what we think is the best combination of cartridge and launching platform for our personal situation. It's good to have choices.
ZeSpectre
Member
I once sat in the center seat of a junked van (full size passenger van) with muffs AND plugs and fired a .357 Magnum out the missing front window to try and get some idea what it would be like. The van had no windshield and, as I said, I was wearing both muffs and plugs and it was still just absolutely STUNNING! (110gr "Treasury loads" out of a 4" S&W 66).
Since then I have laughed at any Hollywood scene where a gun is fired in a car...and then people continue to have a conversation (a-la Pulp Fiction)
There's a REASON I keep a pair of good electronic muffs in the same lockbox that holds my house-gun. In an emergency I may not have time to throw them on, but then again I might.
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I'm not quite sure I get it. I used to carry the .357 mag 135gr SGDSB in my SP101, but I realized something. At 1000fps, it's really only shooting on a .38+p level and putting out .38+p power. So why the heck should I use the SBGDSB .357, when I can just use another companies hot loaded .38+p and get the same velocity with better ejection due to shorter rounds?
Where is the advantage in the short barrel .357 ammo? I'm asking that as a serious question.
I'd rather carry DT's .38+p Which is faster by 100fps, only loses 10gr. and will eject more reliably. Right?
Main things are that .357 length cases won't leave crud rings in the chamber, and the bullet has less of a "jump" from the case to the forcing cones, resulting in better velocity and accuracy.
People have tested .357 revolvers vs. .38 ones, and .38 SPLs in a .357 chamber do seem to lose a few FPS due to the extra room. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was in the ballpark of 20-50 fps, depending on the load.
Other than that, the Speer 135 gr SBGDs are intentionally loaded to hot .38 levels for two reasons. They're meant for snubnose revolvers, a large number of which are alloy framed, and fullhouse .357s in those things are just no fun at all. And the 135 gr SBGD bullet is designed for slowish velocities under 1,000 fps. Push it too fast, and it overexpands and breaks up. You really shouldn't consider that a design flaw, though. All well-engineered bullets are designed for a particular performance envelope, and the Speer 135 gr SBGD is designed around what can controllably come out of an airweight snubby.
If reloading and ejection are an issue, I'd use the .38 SPL 135 gr SBGDs. They're only 100 fps slower. Or 120 fps or whatever in a .357 chamber. All else being equal, it's always better to have a bullet that's designed specifically for the velocity you're shooting it at, than to just go with whatever's hottest. It's like if you're buying a car, do you want a plain old boring midsized sedan, or some kind of mess that's been hot-rodded to go 160 mph, but steers like a pregnant hippo and burns up the brakes the first time you try to stop?
Personally, if I were carrying a snubby .357, I'd keep the gun loaded with 158 gr lead hollowpoints handloaded to about 880 fps in .357 brass, and have Speer .38 SPL 135 gr SBGDs (factory, or handloaded to factory velocity) on a speedloader for my reload.
True. there is a minimal loss in accuracy. Honestly though, how much do you really think you are losing at self-defense ranges? With your hands shaking from adrenaline, and a guy 5-20 feet away trying to kill you, do you really think that the .5 inch loss of accuracy at 15 yards is really going to matter?
To make sure I can pop 'em out easily to reload another 5 rounds, I think 20-50 fps difference is really not much of a loss. Especially when you take into account that the DT round is 100 pfs faster than the GDSB .357, i'm actually ahead of the game even with the velocity loss.
No argument there. Every bullet is designed to work within certain velocities. But I will take the opportunity to reiterate that if it's purposely loaded to .38spl velocities, there are really not many advantages over a hot .38spl (except for the very slight difference in velocity and accuracy, neither of which would make a huge difference in an SD scenario). And if you need something to shoot controllably in a scandium framed gun, .38spl is always there.
Very true. My choice for .38spl would be the DT load I mentioned above because then there would be no loss in velocity vs. using the 135gr .357. In fact, there would be an increase!!!
Can't argue with that. I use 158gr .357mag in my SP101. I like heavy bullets.
I was firing some winchester 125 grain "winclean" rounds at the range last week(indoor range) with both earlplugs and muffs, and it made my ears ring at one point. I personally would either use mild 357's or .38 special.
I was present during an indoor/home ND with a 3 inch 9mm and it made my ears ring for a couple hours, but it wasn't too bad. I'd imagine that is similar to a .38 +p.
I was present during an indoor/home ND with a 3 inch 9mm and it made my ears ring for a couple hours, but it wasn't too bad. I'd imagine that is similar to a .38 +p.
Still, I have no idea what kind of velocity the 125 gr GD is designed for. Does Speer use the exact same bullet for their .38 SPL and .357 mag loads, or are there different versions? I really don't know, but Midway and Grafs only sell one kind of 125 gr GD.
So you have to wonder, is that bullet designed more for the .38 loads, or more for the .357 ones? Which caliber is getting the short end of the stick? I'd want to see that specific load tested in jello before I was comfortable relying on it for defense.
Actually, I did find it, sort of.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html
Shot 5 - Buffalo Bore Ammunition 125gr +P Speer Gold Dot. Impacted at 1091 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.9" and expanded to 0.543" average diameter.
Looks like good stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to use that over 135 gr SBGDs in an all-steel snub. In an alloy-framed one, I'd have to shoot it and see what the recoil's like, though.
But, jello data and felt recoil are what I'd base the decision on, rather than just the fact that it's more powerful. More velocity means the bullet can do more damage, but construction and design determine whether it does.
Fortunately, looks like the people at Speer, Double Tap, and Buffalo Bore know what they're doing.
SAWBONES
Member
As one who's had the occasion to once shoot a full house .357 Magnum 158gr JHP round inside the house in an enclosed room, in dim lighting from a 2.5" barrel Smith 686, I can attest to both the lack of any hearing damage and lack of any notable or "blinding" muzzle flash.
Irrespective of "expert" opinions to the contrary, of course.
Irrespective of "expert" opinions to the contrary, of course.
And I've witnessed someone be almost completely incapacitated by the noise of a single shot of 158 gr .357 magnum through a snubnose, outdoors, standing 15 feet away behind the shooter, because they apparently thought that was far enough away to take off their hearing protection.
The guy couldn't even talk coherently or stand on his own for about a minute, because of the pain in his ears. I can't imagine what kind of permanent hearing loss resulted. Good thing the other guy only fired one shot.
The guy couldn't even talk coherently or stand on his own for about a minute, because of the pain in his ears. I can't imagine what kind of permanent hearing loss resulted. Good thing the other guy only fired one shot.
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