.38 +P snubby vs. Pocket .380 and 9mm pistols

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stinger 327

stinger 327

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In general are .38 snubbies with +P more powerful than pocket .380 and 9mm pistols?
 
9mm will top the 38+p
The 380 and the 38 should be very close depending on what bullet is selected.
 
On paper the 9mm tops the .38 spl in both its standard and plus p variants.In reality either the .38 or 9mm will work well for their intended purpose, which was self defense and warfare. With the .38 spl offered as an improvement over the sub-par .38 Long Colt and used By the military well into Vietnam,also being chosen as the standard amongst most of the nations' police departments. Georg Luger developed the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge from his earlier 7.65×21mm Parabellum round,In 1902, Luger presented the new round to the British Small Arms Committee as well as three prototype versions to the U.S. Army for testing at Springfield Arsenal in mid-1903. The German Navy adopted the cartridge in 1904 and in 1906 the German Army adopted it as well.Starting in the 80s The 9×19mm Parabellum has become the most popular caliber for U.S. law enforcement agencies, primarily due to the availability of compact pistols with large magazine capacity that use this cartridge.From the early 1980s to the mid-1990s, there was a sharp increase in the popularity of semiautomatic pistols which coincided with the adoption of the S&W Model 39 by the Illinois State Police in 1968, and the Beretta M9 (a military version of the Beretta Model 92) by the U.S. Army in 1985. Previously, most police departments issued .38 Special caliber revolvers with a six-shot capacity. The .38 Special was preferred to other weapons such as variants of the M1911 because it offered low recoil, was small and light enough to accommodate different shooters, and was relatively inexpensive.The .380 ACP has experienced widespread use in the years since its introduction. It was famously used by many German officers during World War II in the Walther PPK, as well as by Italian forces in the Beretta M1934. However, as a service pistol round, its power did not provide suitable penetration for combat. It did find use as a backup gun due to low recoil, and is popular in the civilian market as a personal defense round. The .380 ACP round is considered suitable for self-defense situations, and as a result, it has been a viable choice for concealed carry pistols. With that said all three cartridges would work well in a self defense situation, if using quality JHPs and proper shot placement, To put it short, I dont want to get shot with either one. Hope this helps, We are not really talking about major differences until we bring the magnums and several other automatic rounds like the 10mm into effect.
 
Barry the Bear said:
On paper the 9mm tops the .38 spl in both its standard and plus p variants.In reality either the .38 or 9mm will work well for their intended purpose, which was self defense and warfare. With the .38 spl offered as an improvement over the sub-par .38 Long Colt and used By the military well into Vietnam,also being chosen as the standard amongst most of the nations' police departments. Georg Luger developed the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge from his earlier 7.65×21mm Parabellum round,In 1902, Luger presented the new round to the British Small Arms Committee as well as three prototype versions to the U.S. Army for testing at Springfield Arsenal in mid-1903. The German Navy adopted the cartridge in 1904 and in 1906 the German Army adopted it as well.Starting in the 80s The 9×19mm Parabellum has become the most popular caliber for U.S. law enforcement agencies, primarily due to the availability of compact pistols with large magazine capacity that use this cartridge.From the early 1980s to the mid-1990s, there was a sharp increase in the popularity of semiautomatic pistols which coincided with the adoption of the S&W Model 39 by the Illinois State Police in 1968, and the Beretta M9 (a military version of the Beretta Model 92) by the U.S. Army in 1985. Previously, most police departments issued .38 Special caliber revolvers with a six-shot capacity. The .38 Special was preferred to other weapons such as variants of the M1911 because it offered low recoil, was small and light enough to accommodate different shooters, and was relatively inexpensive.The .380 ACP has experienced widespread use in the years since its introduction. It was famously used by many German officers during World War II in the Walther PPK, as well as by Italian forces in the Beretta M1934. However, as a service pistol round, its power did not provide suitable penetration for combat. It did find use as a backup gun due to low recoil, and is popular in the civilian market as a personal defense round. The .380 ACP round is considered suitable for self-defense situations, and as a result, it has been a viable choice for concealed carry pistols. With that said all three cartridges would work well in a self defense situation, if using quality JHPs and proper shot placement, To put it short, I dont want to get shot with either one. Hope this helps, We are not really talking about major differences until we bring the magnums and several other automatic rounds like the 10mm into effect.
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Thanks for that info and history. I do remember back in the 80's through the 90's the transition the police departments went through from revolvers to autos in 9mm then to .40 cal. I believe in 1985 the US Army switched over to the 9mm as the official side arm because most NATO countries used 9mm. Now is it true that 9mm was created for wounding in war time so that it will tie up soldiers having to contend with the injured?
 
9mm Design

I think it went more along the lines of those shot with the 9mm ended up marginally wounded more often than fatally. (during wartime) Now days ammo such as Lehigh Defense ME, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Bonded HP, and so on are super effective in eliminating life threatening situations.
 
My experience has been that a 642 S&W shooting +P has much more recoil than my pocket 9s. That is purely my experience and I have no statistical data to back it up. I just know that I don't enjoy shooting the 38 with +P more than a few times so I find that I don't practice much with it. With "regular P" ammo I can shoot it 100 times without issues.
I also don't shoot much +P in my 9s.
 
jrdolall said:
My experience has been that a 642 S&W shooting +P has much more recoil than my pocket 9s. That is purely my experience and I have no statistical data to back it up. I just know that I don't enjoy shooting the 38 with +P more than a few times so I find that I don't practice much with it. With "regular P" ammo I can shoot it 100 times without issues.
I also don't shoot much +P in my 9s.
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the recoil in the .38+P LCR is horrible. But it isn't for range for fun shooting mainly for personal protection.
 
I don't shoot my .38 LCR very often anymore. I really love the weight of the gun and how comfortable it is to hold. However, I just can't get good groupings with it. Short of pulling it and firing 5 shots into a belly, I don't feel competent enough with it to carry it as a primary piece unless it really fits the bill (in my coat pocket). Shooting +P results in me firing some very effective bullets hitting some very ineffective parts of the paper. LSWC of standard pressure is my .38 special medicine of choice.

The LCP I actually shoot better. My groupings are actually pretty accurate and of combat sufficiency at 7-15 yards. I'm not really jazzed about .380 round. It's what I carry when I can't carry anything else (jeans back pocket with a tucked in shirt and no place to lose the bulk of a carry gun). I bounce back and forth between the penetrate/expand debate of the .380.

If I can conceal it, I much prefer a 9mm. Even non+p 9mm of the hollow point format is going to offer a lot of oomph and more firepower over the snubbie or pocket .380.
 
Fiv3r said:
I don't shoot my .38 LCR very often anymore. I really love the weight of the gun and how comfortable it is to hold. However, I just can't get good groupings with it. Short of pulling it and firing 5 shots into a belly, I don't feel competent enough with it to carry it as a primary piece unless it really fits the bill (in my coat pocket). Shooting +P results in me firing some very effective bullets hitting some very ineffective parts of the paper. LSWC of standard pressure is my .38 special medicine of choice.

The LCP I actually shoot better. My groupings are actually pretty accurate and of combat sufficiency at 7-15 yards. I'm not really jazzed about .380 round. It's what I carry when I can't carry anything else (jeans back pocket with a tucked in shirt and no place to lose the bulk of a carry gun). I bounce back and forth between the penetrate/expand debate of the .380.

If I can conceal it, I much prefer a 9mm. Even non+p 9mm of the hollow point format is going to offer a lot of oomph and more firepower over the snubbie or pocket .380.
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I would opt for a pocket 9mm if there is such a gun. Ruger LC-9? The LCP is a great size for carry . 9mm is also cheaper in cost than .380. I hate to have all of these different calibers
 
I can only say what I know and If what I know is wrong then please someone correct me so I and the others can learn. Ive heard and read of heavy for caliber bullets in .38 spl and .38 s&w caused a tumbling characteristic ( the 200 gr bullet) similar to the .223/556s' ability to yaw in a human sized target. In retrospect, I cant say the same for the 9mm but what can be said is regardless which is shot into you,you still have a .355-.357 hole in you.
 
I have pocket pistols in 380 (LCP), 9mm (CM9), and .38 Special (642). I prefer the S&W 642, its weight-to-power ratio can't be beat by the others. Mine weighs 16.5oz fully loaded with five rounds of Buffalo Bore 158gr +p LSWCHP. The Buffalo Bore rounds chronograph at just over 1000fps from my snubby. I haven't been able to find a 9mm round that can match that power from my CM9.
 
stinger 327 said:
I would opt for a pocket 9mm if there is such a gun. Ruger LC-9? The LCP is a great size for carry . 9mm is also cheaper in cost than .380. I hate to have all of these different calibers
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My problem with the LC9 is that I think it could have been just a little bit smaller. It's super thin so for IWB, it's probably pretty comfy. However, it's still a little too wide for me to consider it a pocket pistol.

For my money, I like the 10+1 Glock 26. I don't carry IWB, though. I don't like anything tucked into my belt line. The 26 either rides OWB under an over shirt, tucked up under my arm in a belly band, or in a custom back pocket holster for when I'm bumming around but not SITTING a lot:D
 
At shot ranges "like defensive use" they are pretty much equal. The 9mm has more options, and pressures make the round more capable of doing more things than a 38 or 38+P.
But for all intensive purposes, the 380, 9mm and 38, are pretty much making the same size hole with FMJ ammo. The selections spreads apart when you start loading the 9mm under higher pressure. At 10 feet I doubt there is much difference, also with a 3 inch barrel vs a 6 inch revolver barrel it starts to even out a bit.
I think it's more the number of rounds you feel will do the job for you. And that we never know until it happens. Some say you will never need more than 5, others believe, 30 or 50 rounds are what they feel comfortable with. I like a minimum of 7, with at least one spare mag.Back in the 70's we felt that 5 rounds was sufficient, and it may have been back then. But that was before the Glock mania hit. I sure wouldn't want to be facing a couple of bangers with 9mm Tupperware guns with only 5 rounds, now a days.
Even with superior tactics and skills, they still have a lot of rounds to get lucky with.
http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm_vs_.38special.php
 
I've carried and shot em all. Even 9mm in snubby revolvers.

In my opinion. 380 falls a bit short in the penetration department. It will get there but only just with ball ammo, with JHP its pretty marginal.

38 tends to fall short on expansion from a snubby but not penetration. Very light bullets can get going well enough to expand reliably but then your knocking on the door that is 380's problem. But you can shoot a well designed 158g cast bullet and velocity becomes irrelevant with better than FMJ terminal ballistics.

9mm strikes a very good balance between bullet weight, penetration and expansion. Make no mistake when fired from the same platform it's a great deal more powerful than 38. 20k psi vs 37

I will carry 38 or 9mm. I had a 9mm Taurus snubby and now my EDC is a 38lcr. 380 I'm less of a fan of. For a tiny FMJ only pocket pistol round I prefer the higher capacity and shoot ability of a .32auto
 
I don't know if the power factor should really play a key roll in deciding between a .38 snubbie and a 9mm. I mean, can you really think of a situation where a shot fired from one would have a decisively different result than am identical shot from the other?

The difference is going to be YOU, and how well YOU shoot one vs the other. I know a lot of guys who cannot hit the broad side of a barn with a snubbie. I know others who swear by them. Go with what you shoot well
 
380fmj and Winchester truncated fmj penetrates over 20inches as tested by brassfetcher. That's out of a keltec p3at. More important to me is the platform. I prefer my beretta 84b with 14rounds of 380 to a 38 snubnose with 5 rounds or all the compact 9mm's out there I've tried.
 
stinger 327 said:
In general are .38 snubbies with +P more powerful than pocket .380 and 9mm pistols?
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The numbers are the last thing you should consider when choosing a SD handgun. IMO the .38 Special is more effective than a 9mm round for round for stopping the bad guy. Shot placement is very important and the ability to deliver a second well placed shot is also very important. I would choose the gun you can fire most accurately and not worry about "power" when comparing the .38 Special against the 9mm. Also, with the new bullets on the market old data is useless especially when you are looking at data from the 60's and 70's. Bullet technology is advancing all the time so in turn the SD ammo constructed with those bullets is better too.

Any ammo can be pushed to insane velocities but that doesn't make it better. The best ammo in the world is useless unless you hit what you shoot at.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
The numbers are the last thing you should consider when choosing a SD handgun. IMO the .38 Special is more effective than a 9mm round for round for stopping the bad guy. Shot placement is very important and the ability to deliver a second well placed shot is also very important. I would choose the gun you can fire most accurately and not worry about "power" when comparing the .38 Special against the 9mm. Also, with the new bullets on the market old data is useless especially when you are looking at data from the 60's and 70's. Bullet technology is advancing all the time so in turn the SD ammo constructed with those bullets is better too.

Any ammo can be pushed to insane velocities but that doesn't make it better. The best ammo in the world is useless unless you hit what you shoot at.
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Lots of fatalities with the .25 ACP pistols. Saw one do lots of damage with a Magsafe load compared to a FMJ
 
Go with what you shoot well

Stinger,

I would go with what you shoot well and have the most experience with.
For me, that is hands down a small auto. My largest everyday carry gun is a SIG 232 in .380ACP. I shoot it very well and the superior sights (they are nights sights too), excellent trigger and teriffic ergonomics leave a revovler far behind. Also, it is hard to compare 8 shots with a faster reload to 5 shots, in my mind.

That is me and I am a semi-auto guy for almost all my shooting.

If you have more experience with a revolver, then you may consider it a better choice.

I recomment you shoot them side by side. I shoot the SIG 232 and several compact 9m.m. better than any 5 shot .38 Special, so my choice was simple. The S&W model 38, CHARTER ARMS Undercover and TAURUS all went into the safe or were traded off.

RECOIL is one of the factors to consider. I found the heavy bullet +P .38 Special to be abusive to my hand and switched to standard pressure loads like the FEDERAL Nyclad 125 grain load. The recoil is very soft in a steel framed gun and not bad in a lightweight.

The most important thing is to get a gun you are confident and comfortabe in using so that you will be able to practice.

Good luck,

Jim
 
I don't think there's a lot of difference between .38 snubs and 9mm pocket pistols, power-wise. The deciding factor for me has been the lesser reliability of pocket pistols as opposed to snub revolvers.

Some have reported 100% reliability with their pocket autos, but I've seen several specimens experience stoppages at IDPA BUG matches. These were well-maintained pistols in the hands of experienced shooters. I've neither seen nor experienced such issues with top tier, well-maintained snubs.

I have no hesitation in carrying a service pistol (mostly a BHP), but the smaller pistols, with less slide mass, different tolerances, etc., just aren't as comforting to me.
 
Fiv3r said:
My problem with the LC9 is that I think it could have been just a little bit smaller. It's super thin so for IWB, it's probably pretty comfy. However, it's still a little too wide for me to consider it a pocket pistol.

For my money, I like the 10+1 Glock 26. I don't carry IWB, though. I don't like anything tucked into my belt line. The 26 either rides OWB under an over shirt, tucked up under my arm in a belly band, or in a custom back pocket holster for when I'm bumming around but not SITTING a lot:D
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I wish the LC9 was the size of the LCP but in 9mm and not .380.
 
I carried a snubby for 20 years, then a pf-9 for 2 years and now a cm9 for the last 3 1/2/ never will go back to a snubby. No reason too.
 
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