.38 short - who knew?

[thunderbyrd]

just came from my LGS, looking for .45acp. i found something i never expected to see. a pile of .38 short. i thought "oh boy! i'll get some of that for my wife to shoot! lower recoil!" good thing i asked if if works in a regular 38 because it doesn't. i did not know that. anybody know what the difference is?

i was very surprised to see a big pile of .327 magnum. a shame i don't have anything to shoot it in.

 

[mcb]

First was it modern 38 Short Colt (Remington, Magtech and a few others are loading a modern version) or was it the original 38 Short Colt that used a .375 diameter heeled in bullets similar to 22 LR. The original version was a cartridge for cartridge conversions of some 36 cal cap and ball revolvers. The modern version is basically a 38 special cut down to 38 Short Colt length, loaded with a .358 diameter bullet and is perfectly safe to shoot in moern 38 Special and 357 Magnum Revolvers. I shoot heap of reloaded 38 Short Colt in my S&W 627 in USPSA competition. It is the second most common cartridge in the Revolver division.

Another possibility is was it 38 S&W and not 38 Short Colt. It nearly identical to modern 38 Short Colt except it uses a larger .361 diameter bullet and the case is very slightly larger in diameter and very slightly longer than 38 Short Colt. It may or may not chamber in a 38 Special or 357 Magnum chamber depending on tolerance stackups.

 

[ThomasT]

Here is a video done with the 38 short ammo. It will give you an idea of its performance.

 

[herrwalther]

This is why it is really important to shoot what matches the barrel on your firearm. My wife bought a 32ACP this year and the gun store tried throwing in a box of 32NAA to go with it. A quick check on my phone, they are not the same round. Just seeing 38 Short Colt, I thought it was the same thing as 38 S&W aka 38 Colt New Police. And it isn't.

 

[.308 Norma]

This is why it is really important to shoot what matches the barrel on your firearm.

That's for sure.

My wife bought a 32ACP this year and the gun store tried throwing in a box of 32NAA to go with it. A quick check on my phone, they are not the same round.

I had to look the 32NAA up (Google) too. I couldn't even find it in my 2000 edition of "Cartridges of the World" book. It looks like an interesting little round though.
My dad would have loved it. But he was always an "anything 32" type of guy.

 

[ThomasT]

That's for sure.

I had to look the 32NAA up (Google) too. I couldn't even find it in my 2000 edition of "Cartridges of the World" book. It looks like an interesting little round though.
My dad would have loved it. But he was always an "anything 32" type of guy.

The 32 NAA was made from a necked down 380 case as you should know by now. It was first created by gunwriter JB Woods who also did the same thing with a 32acp case and necked it down for a 25acp bullet. The dimensions were changed slightly so no one had to use his name on the cartridge or pay him royalties for his idea. He was a long time gunsmith and I remember reading the article when he introduced those rounds. He used an old Savage model 10 semi auto as the test gun.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have seen ".38 Short" ammo that is consistent with the modernized .38 Short Colt and will fit and fire in .38 Special, .357 Magnum chambers.

I have used .38 S&W cases made by Star for handloading for a black powder era .38 S&W revolver. The .38 S&W casings will not fit my Ruger Security Six, .38 Rossi or .38 Taurus chambers, plus the rims are thicker. .

The new ".38 Short" ammo I have found advertised can be considered a short version of the .38 Special or .38 Long Colt.

Do not confuse the ".38 Short" with .38 S&W..

 

[Archie]

[snip]Another possibility is was it 38 S&W and not 38 Short Colt. It nearly identical to modern 38 Short Colt except it uses a larger .361 diameter bullet and the case is very slightly larger in diameter and very slightly longer than 38 Short Colt. It may or may not chamber in a 38 Special or 357 Magnum chamber depending on tolerance stackups.

That's what I would assume. The .38 Short Colt is vastly considered obsolete, and they are hard to find in loaded ammunition. (Might make a come back in Cowboy Shooting.) The .38 S&W is far more available over all. mcb wrote "...it may or may not chamber in..." looking at the cartridge dimensions, it will not. But tolerances do come into play.

 

[mcb]

That's what I would assume. The .38 Short Colt is vastly considered obsolete, and they are hard to find in loaded ammunition. (Might make a come back in Cowboy Shooting.) The .38 S&W is far more available over all. mcb wrote "...it may or may not chamber in..." looking at the cartridge dimensions, it will not. But tolerances do come into play.

Left: 38 S&W, Right: 38 Short Colt, both Remington Factory.

I agree 38 Short Colt in its original Heeled in bullet form is really close to obsolete. Bear Creek Supply does sell a replica of the heeled in bullet for those that want to reload the original. I believe Buffalo Arms occasion runs batches of black powder heeled in bullet 38 Short Colt.

38 Short Colt in it's modern incarnation (ie 38 Special cut down to .765 length using .357/.358 diameter bullets) has a very small but avid group of users in both USPSA Revolver Division and a couple ICORE's divisions. Moonclip feed revolvers reloaded fastest and more fumble free with short cartridges and round nose bullets. 38 Short Colt is about as short as you can go and still safely make the required power factors in both sports. Remington and Magtech are still producing it and Star-line still makes brass.


Lots of modern 38 Short Colt on moonclips ready for competitions.

38 S&W is significantly more popular though far from mainstream right now. Remington, Winchester, PPU, Magtech and several other boutique loaders offer a variety of 38 S&W. I went down and tried some of the 38 S&W I have for my Iver Johnson and Webley Mark IV in some of my 38/357 revolvers. The factory Remington 38 S&W would fit easily in my S&W 442, and Ruger Blackhawk. The Remington fit tight in my S&W model 10 and would not quite go all the way into my S&W 627. The PPU factory ammo would not fit in any of them and my 38/200 reloads I load for my Webley would almost go in the 442 and Blackhawk and none of the others.


Left to Right: Reloaded 38/200, Remington 146 gr 38 S&W, PPU 145 gr 38 S&W, Remington 125 gr 38 Short Colt, Reloaded 160 gr 38 Short Colt

 

[Archie]

MCB; what a revelation! To be honest, I don't follow a lot of 'trends'. I have a group of cartridges I use and tend to stay with them.
If I recall correctly, the .38 Special, et al, was based on the .38 Short Colt. That was the round decided to be ineffective against the Moros in the Philippines. It was chambered in some of the revolvers of the 'old west', but seems to be missing for a long time.
I am a bit surprised it has been resurrected for revolver games. At the same time, I'm not so surprised. It seems to make the power requirements - if any - in various categories. Moon clips? I use .45 AR in revolvers to avoid moon clips. Then again, I don't play games.
I do have a revolver in .38 S&W. It started life as a Victory model S&W, but somewhere has been 'converted' to .38 Special and the barrel cut off just AFT of the ejector lug. I bought it years ago as it was cheap and looked so lonely and sad. Never have shot it.
I have several .38 Special revolvers and am working on a 200 grain bullet load, for self defense against ruffians and thugs, not barricades nor automobiles. Just about done. Seems to work.

 

[mcb]

MCB; what a revelation! To be honest, I don't follow a lot of 'trends'. I have a group of cartridges I use and tend to stay with them.
If I recall correctly, the .38 Special, et al, was based on the .38 Short Colt. That was the round decided to be ineffective against the Moros in the Philippines. It was chambered in some of the revolvers of the 'old west', but seems to be missing for a long time.
I am a bit surprised it has been resurrected for revolver games. At the same time, I'm not so surprised. It seems to make the power requirements - if any - in various categories. Moon clips? I use .45 AR in revolvers to avoid moon clips. Then again, I don't play games.
I do have a revolver in .38 S&W. It started life as a Victory model S&W, but somewhere has been 'converted' to .38 Special and the barrel cut off just AFT of the ejector lug. I bought it years ago as it was cheap and looked so lonely and sad. Never have shot it.
I have several .38 Special revolvers and am working on a 200 grain bullet load, for self defense against ruffians and thugs, not barricades nor automobiles. Just about done. Seems to work.

I am not much of a historian but I though it was the 38 Long Colt that was used (poorly) in the Philippines that spurred the development of the 38 Special. I believe the 38 Short Colt was a stop gap cartridge that was only used in Cap and Ball revolver conversions (Colt 1851) and saw little or no military use. But both 38 Long Colt and 38 Special are based on 38 Short Colt.

ICORE has been using modern 38 Short Colt for years and years. They have a power factor requirement of 120 (PF = bullet weight (in grains) X velocity (fps) / 1000).

Until 2014 USPSA was dominated by the S&W 625 45 ACP revolvers since only 6-shooters could play and nothing reloads faster than 45 ACP on moonclips. In 2014 they change the division rules to allowed 7 & 8 shot revolver to play. 38 Short Colt in S&W 627 quickly took over the sport only to be replaced over the next two or three years by S&W 929 and 9x19mm. USPSA has two power factors for Revolver division, a 165 PF for Major revolver which limits you to 6-shots but you get scoring advantages for shooting the cartridges with more recoil and a 125 PF for Minor revolver that allows you to use a 7 or 8 shot revolvers. Most competitors find the capacity advantage more than offsets the scoring disadvantage.

In both sports reloading is part of your score and the longer you take to reload the lower your score, hence the use of moonclips and short fat cartridges.

 

[Archie]

Now you mention it, I think you're right about the Long Colt being the failure in the Philippines. I know it was a "Colt" named cartridge.
As you can tell, I do not follow most 'modern' gun games. Especially the silliness of multiple misses in a very short time frame.

 

[mcb]

Now you mention it, I think you're right about the Long Colt being the failure in the Philippines. I know it was a "Colt" named cartridge.
As you can tell, I do not follow most 'modern' gun games. Especially the silliness of multiple misses in a very short time frame.

Not sure I follow the "misses in a very short time frame." In USPSA a miss on a target incurs a point penalty equivalent to two hits. Hence the saying, "You can't miss fast enough to win." You got to be fast but you got to have good hits too.

 

[Archie]

The concept and practice of the 'thirty round burst' and 'every shooting incident needs two reloads' displays a difference.

 

[jstert]

i have a stash of magtech 38 short colt for use in my airweight s&w 642. its cylinder is loaded with wadcutters but these take a bit more finagling when reloading with a speedloader. given 38 short colt’s bullet shape it’s a faster reload than wadcutters, its low recoil means that i’m rather accurate with it, and it’s the only centerfire ammo that my wife tolerates. yeah 38 short colt is an unlikely one shot stop round, but so is a miss by something stronger.

 

[mcb]

The concept and practice of the 'thirty round burst' and 'every shooting incident needs two reloads' displays a difference.

We are wander off topic but have you participated in USPSA or IDPA competition? Given your earlier comment I am assuming, no you haven't. They are first and foremost a sports not real world self defense training. Participating in these sports can help a shooter become excellent at shooting and handling a handgun for sure. To think of it as real world self-defense training is unwise and to critique the sport in the light of self-defense is to ignore the fact that it is a sport. It's like being critical of NASCAR because the skills don't all translate to street driving.

 

[ThomasT]

I am not much of a historian but I though it was the 38 Long Colt that was used (poorly) in the Philippines that spurred the development of the 38 Special. I believe the 38 Short Colt was a stop gap cartridge that was only used in Cap and Ball revolver conversions (Colt 1851) and saw little or no military use. But both 38 Long Colt and 38 Special are based on 38 Short Colt.

There was an article long ago in Guns & Ammo written by Jack Lott called something like "The 45 and the Moro's, a myth exploded" and in it he talks about the 38 long Colt and initially it did provide a good level of defense. In one of the early battles the US soldiers killed 200+ Moros in close combat. Some hand to hand but most with the 38 Colt. I t wasn't until the fighting moved south that the fighting became tougher and the Moros more fanatical. Here even the 45 Colt and the 30-40 Krag were failing to stop the Moro's. The only sure stopper was the 87 Winchester shotgun loaded with buckshot.

And I don't really think the failures to stop were because of the rounds used. I suspect the biggest problem was accuracy. I would think it was hard to make well placed shots when two or three crazies came running out of the brush at you screaming and charging with raised Panga's and Khurki's and Kris machete's from only a few feet away. A holstered pistol in a flap holster or a slung rifle is hard to get into action when you are attacked at close range. And very seldom are pistol shots an instant stop even with a perfectly placed hit. And I suspect the soldiers were only given the most basic training with few rounds expended in handgun use.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

We are wander off topic but have you participated in USPSA or IDPA competition? Given your earlier comment I am assuming, no you haven't. They are first and foremost a sports not real world self defense training. Participating in these sports can help a shooter become excellent at shooting and handling a handgun for sure. To think of it as real world self-defense training is unwise and to critique the sport in the light of self-defense is to ignore the fact that it is a sport. It's like being critical of NASCAR because the skills don't all translate to street driving.

Sounds kind of like pinball.
It's a game. Some people play cornhole and some people play poker. To each their own.
Not NASCAR but racing: Around 1960, Jackie Stewart tried for and missed out on a place on the British Olympic shooting team - so he decided to try his hand at motor car racing.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

i have a stash of magtech 38 short colt for use in my airweight s&w 642. its cylinder is loaded with wadcutters but these take a bit more finagling when reloading with a speedloader. given 38 short colt’s bullet shape it’s a faster reload than wadcutters, its low recoil means that i’m rather accurate with it, and it’s the only centerfire ammo that my wife tolerates. yeah 38 short colt is an unlikely one shot stop round, but so is a miss by something stronger.

Just as an FYI, I do this with .38LC, not SC but, you can also load the Shorts up for plinking in single-action revolvers, especially shorter barrel revolvers with shorter ejector rods. They eject quicker and easier and in a single stroke, versus trying to poke and jiggle a full magnum-length case out of a 3-1/2" barrel Italian "Colt". If you're only loading to 750 or 800fps using a 158gr. LSWC, why bother with a long case that your ejector can't hope to push out?

 

[Autodidactic]

just came from my LGS, looking for .45acp. i found something i never expected to see. a pile of .38 short. i thought "oh boy! i'll get some of that for my wife to shoot! lower recoil!" good thing i asked if if works in a regular 38 because it doesn't. i did not know that. anybody know what the difference is?

i was very surprised to see a big pile of .327 magnum. a shame i don't have anything to shoot it in.

If it's .38 Colt i.e. .38 Short colt, it will fire in a .38 special. So will .38 Long Colt.

First was it modern 38 Short Colt (Remington, Magtech and a few others are loading a modern version) or was it the original 38 Short Colt that used a .375 diameter heeled in bullets similar to 22 LR. The original version was a cartridge for cartridge conversions of some 36 cal cap and ball revolvers. The modern version is basically a 38 special cut down to 38 Short Colt length, loaded with a .358 diameter bullet and is perfectly safe to shoot in moern 38 Special and 357 Magnum Revolvers. I shoot heap of reloaded 38 Short Colt in my S&W 627 in USPSA competition. It is the second most common cartridge in the Revolver division.

Another possibility is was it 38 S&W and not 38 Short Colt. It nearly identical to modern 38 Short Colt except it uses a larger .361 diameter bullet and the case is very slightly larger in diameter and very slightly longer than 38 Short Colt. It may or may not chamber in a 38 Special or 357 Magnum chamber depending on tolerance stackups.

Right.

Here is a video done with the 38 short ammo. It will give you an idea of its performance.

I've seen this video. Actually, that video motivated me to go through a search for .38 short or long colt ammo. I even have some alerts on ammoseek. I wanted the lower recoil ammo for my .38 special revolver. That video if it is the one I'm thinking of does a good job explaining that .22 LR or similar aren't the only options for recoil-averse. There are these older rounds that are modest power but are low recoil and larger caliber than the smaller pocket rounds.

I made the mistake of passing up on some Black Hills .38 LC, but it was alos $1.00 a round so that informed it. I haven't found either since, except some very pricey stuff on Gunbroker.

 

[Autodidactic]

i have a stash of magtech 38 short colt for use in my airweight s&w 642. its cylinder is loaded with wadcutters but these take a bit more finagling when reloading with a speedloader. given 38 short colt’s bullet shape it’s a faster reload than wadcutters, its low recoil means that i’m rather accurate with it, and it’s the only centerfire ammo that my wife tolerates. yeah 38 short colt is an unlikely one shot stop round, but so is a miss by something stronger.

I want to do exactly this but can't find any short colt for my airweight

 

[fxvr5]

Low recoil 38 Special:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com...atts-bullets-comfort-plinker-38-special-ammo/

It's a plinking load not meant for self defense.

 

[jstert]

Low recoil 38 Special:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com...atts-bullets-comfort-plinker-38-special-ammo/

It's a plinking load not meant for self defense.

until handgun ammo comes with a proximity fuse, a hit with a plinking round beats any miss with a defensive round for just about every suburban civilian.

 

[TTv2]

I often wonder if there is a place for a shorter .38 like .38 Short Colt or .38 S&W in modern times. On one hand you get more penetration, but on the other the .32's give adequate penetration, lower recoil, and generally a higher capacity.

Where a .38 Short Colt would find a niche is in tube fed lever actions as they would increase the capacity of the tube by quite a few rounds. Nobody really seems interested in the idea of a lever action that holds 15 or 20 rounds tho, so whatever.

 

[CDW4ME]

It's a plinking load not meant for self defense.

I'm think that about anything less than a good 9mm HP.

until handgun ammo comes with a proximity fuse, a hit with a plinking round beats any miss with a defensive round for just about every suburban civilian.

That reminds me of the beaten cliché, "a hit with a 22 (whatever) is better than a miss with a 45"
The larger caliber is always the inaccurate one in that cliché comparison.
Lets turn that around for a change, "a hit with a 45 is better than a miss with a 22"

Now lets turn around the plinking ammo thing, "a hit with a defensive round is better than a miss with a plinking round"
Even better, carry ammo designed for SD (at least 12'' penetration and consistent expansion is desired).

Preemptive disclaimer, cause if I don't invariably I'll get quoted & "corrected"
My comments assume ability or physical limitation is not a factor in gun & ammo selection.