Best & low cost way to convert pure Lead to alloy = BHN 10 ?

[JimGnitecki]

I have close to 50 lb of pure Lead. It is too soft to use as is in a cast 500g bullet load for my Pedersoli Sharps replica. I want to alloy it somehow to get to a BHN =10 hardness level for the pressures I will shoot with it.

I am able to buy some alloying metals from a metal supplier 150 miles away:
Tin at $47 Canadian / lb
Antimony at $27 Canadian / lb

BUT, Antimony's melting point (1166 F) is way higher than my Lyman casting furnace can produce, and Tin at $47/lb is pretty costly.

I have wheel weight alloy, BUT it is already at BHN =10, and perfect as is, so I am using it without bledning with any pure Lead of course, which would make it too soft.

What's my best path to make the pure Lead into an alloy with final BHN = 10?

Jim G

 

[Englishmn]

Have you tried using it yet? Harder isn't always better. Worst case would be poor accuracy and leading.

Trade it to a black powder shooter for something harder. Or find some linotype to mix in.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Have you tried using it yet? Harder isn't always better. Worst case would be poor accuracy and leading.

Trade it to a black powder shooter for something harder. Or find some linotype to mix in.

It's definitely too soft in pure form. I don't have any black powder shooter friends to trade with. Linotype is pretty much non-existent since printing went to electronic type setting, and the one guy I know who has some has zero interest in selling or trading any of it because it's too hard for him to replace it.

Is there any commonly available material that uses a hard alloy of Lead, similar to Linotype, that I could belnd my pure Lead with?

Or, do I simply ned to buy enough Tin to make a 5% Tin alloy? That would require 50 lb x .05 x $47/lb plus shipping , which would come to about $138. Is that my best solution, when I consider both cost and "known" quality? (If i buy the Tin and add it to my pure Lead, at least I know EXACTLY what I have in end product)

That approach though would make my mold produce notably lighter bullets, since Tin weighs only 64% of what lead weighs, unless the Tin does not entirely "displace" Lead when allowed with Lead, but rather "fills in" open space between Lead molecules. I don't know how Tin and Lead interact spatially when combined in a molten pot. It Tin simply displaces Lead in a matrix, 5% Tin would reduce the weight of my 497g bullets to 488g. That would significantly affect bullet performance.

Jim G

 

[Englishmn]

I would mix in this stuff until it gets hard enough.

Foundry Alloy Pieces ~34 lb Box with Freight ~(12%-Tin, 26%-Antimony, balance-Lead trace of CU and FE)

[email protected]

www.rotometals.com

 

[Englishmn]

Most molds are made to drop listed weight with lyman #2 alloy just mix in hard until bullets drop at the weight you want. Harder is lighter.
Heaver is softer.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I would mix in this stuff until it gets hard enough.

Foundry Alloy Pieces ~34 lb Box with Freight ~(12%-Tin, 26%-Antimony, balance-Lead trace of CU and FE)

[email protected]

www.rotometals.com

I don't know if Rotometals even ships to Canada, and if it does, the "international" shipping cost for 34 lb would be immense. The raw cost of $109US before any Internaitonal freight becomes $152 Canadian, which is more than the Canadian source cost of Tin I calculated above. More importantly, the Antinomy in that product could not even melt in my Lyman Mag 25 furnace! So, I don't see how it could be alloyed with my Lead "at home".

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Most molds are made to drop listed weight with lyman #2 alloy just mix in hard until bullets drop at the weight you want. Harder is lighter.
Heaver is softer.

I guess one problem is that I don't know the specific chemical composition of the wheel weight alloy I am using that works so well with this new bullet mold I just started using. The ww alloy produces a 497g bullet that this rifle really likes. I guess I need to mix up a small batch of 95% Lead and 5% Tin and see what weight of bullet THAT alloy produces.

Apparently, Antimony weighs 6.74 grams/cc, which is pretty close to Tin which is 7.29 grams/cc. Old WWs like the ones I have are supposedly some blend of Lead, Tin, and Antimony. And since the specific weight of Tin and Antimony are SO close to being the same, I MIGHT be able to stay at close to the same bullet weight if I mix Tin in with the pure Lead. However, since Antimony and Tin have different degrees of hardening effect on Lead, I might end up with a BHN different than the current 10 which I know to be successful. My use of powder coating might help to mitigate any unfavourable shift in BHN, since powder coating seems to make ANY BHN within reason work to even fairly high pressures.

I guess I will need to try casting with a few different ratios of Tin to Lead and examine both the weight AND the BHN and see the pattern.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

I don't know if Rotometals even ships to Canada, and if it does, the "international" shipping cost for 34 lb would be immense. The raw cost of $109US before any Internaitonal freight becomes $152 Canadian, which is more than the Canadian source cost of Tin I calculated above. More importantly, the Antinomy in that product could not even melt in my Lyman Mag 25 furnace! So, I don't see how it could be alloyed with my Lead "at home".

Jim G

I think your confused. Raw antimony in element form is extremely hard to get into alloy. Once properly mixed, remelting is no problem at all. I have intentions of trying that box of pieces but still have one bar of superhard. I'll post a link for further explanation.... rotometals does run sales, I got my superhard on sale. Over a hundred dollars normally ships free in the US. You might be best calling them for most accurate shipping data. Apparently it's on sale now

Super Hard Alloy Metal Ingot - 5 pounds (30%-Antimony, 70%-Lead)

[email protected]

www.rotometals.com

 

[JimGnitecki]

I think your confused. Raw antimony in element form is extremely hard to get into alloy. Once properly mixed, remelting is no problem at all. I have intentions of trying that box of pieces but still have one bar of superhard. I'll post a link for further explanation.... rotometals does run sales, I got my superhard on sale. Over a hundred dollars normally ships free in the US. You might be best calling them for most accurate shipping data. Apparently it's on sale now

Super Hard Alloy Metal Ingot - 5 pounds (30%-Antimony, 70%-Lead)

[email protected]

www.rotometals.com

Thank-you, AJC1! As usual, you have come forward with valuable informaiton. Rotometals has a link on its Superhard webpage to Fryxell's posting at the Los Angeles Silhouette Clubabout Superhard, on how to use it to make good usable alloys of varying properties, from both wheel weights and pure Lead!

I read that posting, and bookmarked it. Then I ordered 5 lb of the Superhard. That amount will be more than enough to handle up to the 50 lb of pure Lead I have, since Superhard is 30% Antimony, so alloyed with 50 lb of pure Lead, the Antimony content would be (30% of 5 lb = 1.5 lb) / (50 lb Lead + 5 lb Superhard = 55 lb) = 2.7%. Varying the amount of Tin I add would change the bullet BHN, diameter, and weight, enabling me to control those 3 variables to at lest some reasonable extent.

Fryxell states in his posting that a temperature of only 650F is required to melt Superhard, so my Lyman furnace is a very workable enviroment (I normally cast at 720F for best results with both the old and new Lee molds I have tried).

The total cost to me here in Canada is of course very high due to the "international" shipping charge, but my total cost of the Superhard and the pure lead then becomes about $.18 Canadian per 500g bullet, which is 18% of what commercially cast 500g bullets would cost me, even if they were available to me, which is questionable, and before shipping costs on top of the bullet costs. So, it's still a very good deal for me.

Thanks again for a great solution.

Jim G

 

[kmw1954]

Almost everything you will ever need to know about casting lead bullets and alloying. I was able to pick up Monotype on ebay. It is harder than Linotype

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm but I see it has already been referenced. Here it also describes how to identify the different types of print type. Another solution would be to find some range scrap to mix in.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php another most excellent group for casting.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Almost everything you will ever need to know about casting lead bullets and alloying. I was able to pick up Monotype on ebay. It is harder than Linotype

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm but I see it has already been referenced. Here it also describes how to identify the different types of print type. Another solution would be to find some range scrap to mix in.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php another most excellent group for casting.

Yes, I have been to those websites, and often! VERY helpful. Range mining is impossible here. Our ranges are on windy prairies, with strong winds, so the berms are kept grass covered and must not be disturbed. There are very few indoor ranges near me, and the ones thta exist are already being mined by others with strong connections to them. No chance of me doing any mining. Besides, I would not want the variability of what comes out of an indoor backstop. I am loading for long range precision, not for IPSC or Cowboy Action. I want, and need, the tightest consistency of raw material going into these 500g monster bullets that are intended to do their rainbow arc into targets at 600 yards or more., using the godless smokeless powder versus the Holy Black.

Jim G

 

[kmw1954]

I am fortunate enough to have access to an outdoor pistol range and with the soft sand it is very easy to mine. I have rendered down pot batches in the 60lb range of range scrap. Amazing is that once all mixed together it becomes very consistent and I end up with a hardness of around 11, which shoots very well in 380, 38spl and 45acp out to 50 yards. As mentioned I also have monotype to add if needed and with that stuff it doesn't take much to bring up the hardness.

Have a friend that is casting and loading 45-70 and he has been shooting that out to 150yds only because that's as long as he can go, out of room.

Good luck in your quest.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Pure antimony (Sb) is toxic to humans. Powdered antimony is extremely hazardous to handle. If you breathe the powder you will be badly injured.

Having said that, it's not really a problem to alloy Sb with lead.

As an example: The melting point of common table sugar is far above the boiling point of water. Yet, sugar dissolves easily in liquid water. Water is a solvent for sugar.

Antimony dissolves in liquid lead. The melting point of antimony is immaterial. Liquid Pb is a solvent for Antimony.

 

[mkl]

Small math correction: To make a 5% tin alloy, you will need 50/.95 = 52.63 pounds of finished alloy. Thus you need 2.63 pounds of tin instead of the 50x.05=2.5 pounds of tin as you calculated.

The 2.5 pounds added to the 50 of lead gives 52.50 pounds alloy. 2.5 pounds tin/52.50 total alloy weight = .0476 or 4.8% alloy.

2.63 tin added gives 2.63/52.63 = .04997 or 5.0% alloy.

And as a final bit of information: What a worthless post!

 

[JimGnitecki]

Pure antimony (Sb) is toxic to humans. Powdered antimony is extremely hazardous to handle. If you breathe the powder you will be badly injured.

Having said that, it's not really a problem to alloy Sb with lead.

As an example: The melting point of common table sugar is far above the boiling point of water. Yet, sugar dissolves easily in liquid water. Water is a solvent for sugar.

Antimony dissolves in liquid lead. The melting point of antimony is immaterial. Liquid Pb is a solvent for Antimony.

Thank-you for that clarification!

Jim G

 

[GooseGestapo]

Jim,
Try going to a builder’s supply store and check out the plumbing supplies.
They likely have some leadfree solder in spool’s.
Some are 95/5% tin/antimony. Others will have a trace of silver and will be called “silver bearing” solder.
Either of these are excellent for hardening soft lead. They also will improve the cast ability of harder alloys with insufficient tin.
The traditional means of hardening soft lead was to add Linotype or wheelweights.
The last time I bought leadfree solder, I got two one-pound spools from Amazon.

Amazon.com

 

[MEHavey]

It's definitely too soft in pure form

But have you actually tried it yet?

What bullets/velocities/pressures are you wanting (in that Sharps(?) )

See:

Pure Lead & PC

Just for grins.... Last evening I took my `86 Miroku out to see just how fast I could push pure lead (PC'd) through it: https://i.postimg.cc/gc3x1b4K/1886-Gould-Fast.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/L5f0VQBD/Lyman-457122-Gould-Pure-Lead.jpg post-1: Mirror bore on dry patch post-2: Being...

castboolits.gunloads.com

 

[Jim Watson]

Small math correction: To make a 5% tin alloy, you will need 50/.95 = 52.63 pounds of finished alloy. Thus you need 2.63 pounds of tin instead of the 50x.05=2.5 pounds of tin as you calculated.

The 2.5 pounds added to the 50 of lead gives 52.50 pounds alloy. 2.5 pounds tin/52.50 total alloy weight = .0476 or 4.8% alloy.

2.63 tin added gives 2.63/52.63 = .04997 or 5.0% alloy.

One problem is that the Old Timers described the alloy by proportion; 20:1 in this case. But now you get it by percentage. Strictly speaking, 5% is 19:1

Rotometals says it both ways. I wonder which you are getting.

1 to 20 Bullet Alloy Ingot (95%-lead, 5%-tin) 5lb ingot​

 

[MEHavey]

JIM: Have you actually cast & fired the pure lead yert?
If so, what bullet/pressure/velocity/lube?

 

[JimGnitecki]

Jim,
Try going to a builder’s supply store and check out the plumbing supplies.
They likely have some leadfree solder in spool’s.
Some are 95/5% tin/antimony. Others will have a trace of silver and will be called “silver bearing” solder.
Either of these are excellent for hardening soft lead. They also will improve the cast ability of harder alloys with insufficient tin.
The traditional means of hardening soft lead was to add Linotype or wheelweights.
The last time I bought leadfree solder, I got two one-pound spools from Amazon.

Amazon.com

Thank-you. I will keep that in mind for future use. Right now, the Superhard I ordered from Rotometals will be sufficient to handle my entire supply of pure Lead on hand.

Jim G

 

[Thomasss]

I've been casting rb for over 30 years and pure lead needs to hardened up just a little.
I used to use dental xray foil which is 80% tin according to Kodak. Lately though that isn't generally
available either. Next best items are wheel weights. You only need to add approx. 4% or so to harden your alloy.
I also have used, scrap lead bullets, and shotgun magnum shot. Magnum shot is selling for $48/25lbs. Also check for window air conditioners that used old time refigerent. The tubing was tin. Today the new ones use only copper. Sometimes my scrap yard will also sell me lead.
Some experimenting on your part is required. Stay away from auto battery lead. It contains cadmium which is rather poisonous when melted.

 

[JimGnitecki]

But have you actually tried it yet?

What bullets/velocities/pressures are you wanting (in that Sharps(?) )

See:

Pure Lead & PC

Just for grins.... Last evening I took my `86 Miroku out to see just how fast I could push pure lead (PC'd) through it: https://i.postimg.cc/gc3x1b4K/1886-Gould-Fast.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/L5f0VQBD/Lyman-457122-Gould-Pure-Lead.jpg post-1: Mirror bore on dry patch post-2: Being...

castboolits.gunloads.com

I HVE been targeting a BHN of 10 to 12, but my BHN target might have to rise a bit, as I am now trying to keep a 500g bullet supersonic as long as practical for 3 reasons:

1. To mitigate transonic effects which my Labradar logs have shown is positively occurring during bullet flight with some negative and unpredictable results.

2. I have now ordered a Shotmarker electronic target system. That system provides an incredibly comprehensive and useful array of data for each individual shot and also each group. But it requires a bullet to be supersonic in order to detect it. By increasing my muzzle velocity of the 500g bullet, I estimate (based on BC and Labradar logs, that I can keep it supersonic to at least 250 yards, maybe 300 yards. That will enable me to use the Shotmarker system for load development ladder testing and for practice sessions with this rifle, even though I want to ultimately shoot it at ranges of up to 600 meters (the limit at our local range facility).

3. Keeping the bullet velocity higher reduces the rainbow trajectory and the significant effects of even modest wind conditions.

My gunsmith has determined that my specific Pedersoli has a .4563"bore diameter, which of course merits a bullet diameter of at least .4583" for decent obturation. Having already launched the .4595" actual diameter bullet (after powder coating and sizing) at 1400 fps, I know from the accuracy results, Labradar records, and the post-session condition of the barrel bore that I have gotten good obturation and have avoided leading of the barrel so far, despite not using gas checks. I credit the powder coating for the lack of leading. But l am already at the speed threshold where prevention of leading should be a high priority. Powder coating is a tremendous help against leading, but I think running pure Lead, which has a BHN of only 5, certainly risks creating leading, and I don't want to subject my pristine barrel to any lead removal processes.

The powder coating, even at the 1400 fps muzzle velocity, is leaving only 5744 powder granular deposits in the barrel (I have verified that it IS 5744 powder, not the powder coating polymer - the granular deposits under the Lee pocket microscope have the exact shape of 5744 granules and experimentation showed that even a DRY patch removes them). No leading whatsoever. This is at BHN = 10. But, I think it might be foolish to provoke leading by using pure Lead.

The presence of 5744 powder in the barrel after firing is merely a result of the small smokeless charge (only 28.0g) in a very large cartridge, and is not a concern.

Earlier, I had been firing loads that the load tables indicate would be in the 14,000 to 19,000 maximum psi range. But now that I see the need to keep the velocity higher, I am currently at pressures that supposedly (per load tables) MIGHT be as high as 28,000 per published load tables (although I doubt the pressure is actually THAT high at 28.0g of powder), when I launch the bullet at 1400 fps. I will be keeping the maximum pressures, per published load tables, under 32,000 psi as an absolute maximum, per Pedersoli's warning in its published notes.

Note that at the current 1400 fps muzzle velocity, and the powder coating, the BHN =10 is still working great (I already am getting 1.16 MOA 5-shot groups at 164 yards and am still learning how to position and hold this rifle with its fierce recoil at that 1400 fps muzzle velocity and 500g bullet weight).

I think that most shooters would agree that trying pure Lead at these pressure and velocity levels is unlikely to produce good results. Plus, pure Lead is rather expensive and hard to get here in Canada and costlier to ship, than wheel weights and Superhard from Rotometals.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

One problem is that the Old Timers described the alloy by proportion; 20:1 in this case. But now you get it by percentage. Strictly speaking, 5% is 19:1

Rotometals says it both ways. I wonder which you are getting.

1 to 20 Bullet Alloy Ingot (95%-lead, 5%-tin) 5lb ingot​

Good question. So far, I have ordered only the 5lb Superhard ingot from Rotometals. I DO need to ask Rotometals how best to cut (or break?) the Superhard material, while minimizing exposure to the resulting hazrdous particles produced by either cutting or breaking the ingot.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

JIM: Have you actually cast & fired the pure lead yert?
If so, what bullet/pressure/velocity/lube?

Answered in my posting no. 22.

Jim G

 

[41 Mag]

Depending on the dimensions of your superhard ingot, you could go about it a couple of ways.

Throw a piece of plywood across a bathroom scale, zero, and weigh. Then use a c- clamp on the end as a handle and dip into you lead pot incrementally and reweigh until you removed the amount needed.

I've also used a small SS pot sitting atop a piece of plywood on my scale to melt and weight using a Mapp gas torch. Just melted off what I needed from a pig, and dropped that into the already hot lead.