.38 Special +P+ load data?

[danbowkley]

I've been trolling all over the place and can't find any data for the .38 Special +P+. I'm not even sure that it's a "real/official" SAAMI load, but then again I don't really care. I've got a bunch of brass headstamped as +P+ and darnit I wanna load it. I usually use W231 for my pistol stuff, since it's easier to have a big jug of one powder than 20, one pound cans of 20 powders, but I think I can reverse engineer something if I knew the actual specs of this. Anyone?

 

[steveno]

+P+ loadings do not have a SAAMI rating. your best bet is to chronograph some ammo and proceed VERY carefully. I think I would only the loads in a 357 magnum but then if I have a 357 magnum there isn't any reason to load +P+ rounds. it is my understanding (or at least heard) that departments would have to sign a waiver becuase of the extra wear on guns.

 

[Drail]

Keep in mind that when a manufacturer stamps a case +P+ they intended for it to withstand that pressure for one firing only. If you hit cases with enough pressure enough times they'll blow. As said, proceed with caution. 231 is not a powder to use for max loads anyway I don't think you'll find any data anywhere for +P+ loads with 231. I cannot understand why guys want to subject their guns to that much force.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree with everybody, even you.
There is no published +P+ data because there is no SAAMI specification as to what +P+ really means.

The ammo companies started labeling +P+ for government agency contracts specifying higher velocity than possible at +P levels. The legend was that the agencies wanted more power without the adverse publicity of using Magnums. (One of the anti-gun organizations had the scare line: "Bullets shaped like the engine nacelles on a B-47. The bullets don't explode, YOU do!")

If you want to soup up the .38 Special, look for information on the .38-44 High Velocity. Some load tables from gunzine articles are posted at:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=53508

You will note that they do not call for fast burning powders like W231. This is very specialized handloading and you had best be careful.

THEY ARE ONLY FOR USE IN A .357 MAGNUM GUN, S&W .38-44 HEAVY DUTY OR OUTDOORSMAN, COLT NEW SERVICE OR ONE OF THE .38s ON .357 MAGNUM FRAME LIKE A RUGER SS, GP, SP, OR S&W MODEL 681.

Such loads will beat up a K38 and even though Colt used to list all their .38s for .38-44 you could get one fixed if you broke it then. You can't now.
They might well demolish a J frame or off brand .38.

 

[Stumper]

Folks are correct when they say that there is no SAAMI spec for +P+. However the ammo companies did put pressure specs on some of those Treasury and other agency +P+ loads. Generally they were under 23,500psi. Dave Scovill has a chapter on the .38special in his book 'Loading The Peacemaker" In it there is a selection of 38/44 or +P+ loads. His idea of a 38/44 load is one generating under 30kpsi. Lots ogood loading data but much of it may be beyond the modern +P+.
I have one load to refer to you that should be under the 23.5k level but beyond +p. Try 7.5 grains of HS6 under a 158 grain bullet.

 

[ReloaderFred]

When Winchester first developed the old Treasury Load in the late 1970's, it was with a 110 gr. JHP bullet. They did in fact require a liability waiver be signed by the department before they would sell the ammunition to them. I had one of the liability forms when I was rangemaster for our department between 1977 and 1979, but County Counsel wouldn't let the Sheriff sign the form, so we weren't able to get it.

I talked to the Vice President of Winchester Ammunition at the time about it, and they were developing the Silver Tip pistol ammunition and working on jacket/core separation before they released it to the market. He suggested we wait for the Silver Tip, which we did.

I still have a bunch of the old Treasury loads in my shop with the red law enforcement warning on the boxes. It's pretty warm stuff, but as noted above, you're better off just loading your brass with regular loads and reserve hot loads for the .357 Magnum.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[gamestalker]

I load +P all the time, and for that I go with 7.0 grs. of Longshot and a 125 gr. jacketed. They chronograph at around 1250 fps. You can go to Hogdon and find lighter bullets and powder data that will push them a bit faster than that even. I've tried working up beyond that point, but I didn't accomplish anything by doing so, except wasting powder.

The 7.0 gr. charge of Longshot I use was worked up from the published standard data, don't start at the maximum +P data.

 

[ironhead7544]

We used the +P+ ammo when I was a Border Patrol Agent. 1200
fps from a 4 inch M66 S&W. You can duplicate the load with 231 if you have a chronograph. I would only use it in a .357 Magnum.

 

[Jim Watson]

However the ammo companies did put pressure specs on some of those Treasury and other agency +P+ loads. Generally they were under 23,500psi.

But not always.
Several years ago there was a gunzine article that started out as a typical puff piece on Corbon ammunition. The writer had a chronograph and even lined up a pressure gun. Everything checked out at or very close to advertised velocity and within SAAMI pressures... until he got to their .38 +P+. It ran way over 30K, I calculated 94% of .357 Magnum pressure. Of course everybody got all apologetic and we were assured that standards would be adhered to.
But a guy here had some of the hot stuff in one of those darned little titanium cylinder S&Ws. Painful recoil, just painful. I shot two and handed the gun back.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

No need to say there is no +P+ SAAMI rating because it's been said.

I would not shoot a round pushed to +P+ pressures in anything but a .357 Magnum for safety.
Now for something in the +P+ load range. Hodgdon had load data for a .357 Magnum round using a 158gr LSWC and W231. They charge 5.0gr and they report pressures of 23,900 CUP. That sounds like a +P+ load to me... Again, I would only fire that round in a .357 Magnum revolver since it's a low pressure .357 Magnum load.

 

[evan price]

Federal had a round they sold as LE only, 147-gr Hydra-Shok which was +P+ headstamped, according to Federal's own web site this got 950 fps. I picked up a half a dozen boxes recently from my local gun shop who took it in on trade when an agency changed over to semi-autos from S&W M-10's. It shot well out of my K-frame S&W. Didn't seem all that fierce. I'm using it as my defense ammo for all of my 38 specials now.

Browsing the Hodgdon data center you can load the Hornady 158-gr XTP with 11.0 of H4227 and get 950 fps out of it and still be under 18,000 psi. So the Federal +P+ rating seems a bit optimistic. Just because the headstamp says +P+ doesn't mean it's really all that great.

 

[armsmaster270]

We used Federal +P+ 38spl's This is from a box of Calif Highway Patrol ammo by winchester. We were issued Mod 15's My mod 15 has had a lot of +P+ put through it and is still tight. Our Federal +P+ was headstamped FC and the last 2 digits of Mfg. date like G.I. Ammo.

 

[Sport45]

It's possible the +P+ brass you have is no different from any other brass. Sometimes the only difference is the headstamp after the first firing.

Weigh 5 of them on your scale and compare it to the weight of 5 that aren't +P+ stamped and see if they contain any more brass. By weighing 5 you'll negate some of the case-to-case variance.

 

[gamestalker]

I don't worry about the head stamp being +P. Factory +P might use a heavier brass, but I doubt it and I've never had problems using standard head stamp brass.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

From everything I've read about .38 Special brass there is no difference other than the headstamp between standard and +P brass. I think the same holds true for something marked +P+ too...

 

[rcmodel]

There may be a difference.

I have some Remington +P brass that is much heavier, with a base web very much like a .357 case. In fact, were it not for the length and the headstamp, it would be .357 brass judging from the web taper thickness.

It is pretty old brass, so I don't know if they still do that or not.

GI issue RA brass is also much thicker & heavier then normal .38 Spl brass.

rc

 

[evan price]

This is the stuff I was talking about. It's headstamped +P+ but Federal's website calls it 950 FPS. I figured for $16 a box it couldn't be beat for carry ammo in the Model 10's I have.

 

[Old Grumpy]

I shoot most of my .38 loads from my .357 magnum revolvers. I do however have a S&W Model 64 2" (Stainless Model 10) which handles +P ammunition without any problems. If I had a bunch of inexpensive (cheap) factory .38 spl +P or +P+ ammunition I gladly shoot it. Probably anything +P+ would go in the .357s.

It's just too easy to load nice, easy to handle, .38 spl range loads to mess with the +P stuff (that's why they invented the .357 mag).

 

[Jim Watson]

It's headstamped +P+ but Federal's website calls it 950 FPS.

If they had chosen the powder better, they might have gotten higher velocity.
+P and +P+ refer to chamber pressure which is no guarantee of performance.

Or maybe this stuff just checked out 1% higher than +P and they decided to label it +P+ and sell it off.

 

[danbowkley]

I'd pretty much settled on the idea of loading them to +P but at the warm end of that range, and using my (huge) stash of +P brass for a more middling load. Gotta dig into that treasury load a bit, maybe do a little experimenting. Anyone have a spare pressure barrel lying around?