.40 vs 10mm for CCW/Self-Defense (Against Humans)

[Old Dog]

When I first read the OP, I had to check the date to make sure it was a current thread and not a post from 1990.

Yessir!

CCW choice .40 S&W vs. 10mm?

I choose neither, sorry to crap in the thread.

I will carry a Glock 20 if I'm in polar bear or grizzly country. I was, for a little while in a previous lifetime, issued a Glock 23. Not really ergonomic, a bit snappy in the recoil department, barely adequate accuracy. Reliable, though.

To me, the .40 S&W is a superfluous cartridge; the current 9mm and .45 ACP premium JHPs easily equal or exceed the performance of anything in .40 S&W with less recoil, and in the case of the 9mm, much higher magazine capacity.

Anything in 10mm? Almost as cumbersome to shoot as full house .44 Magnum. With less accuracy. (Of course, that could be because we tend to shoot 10mm out of plastic pistols while we shoot the .44 Mag. out of heavy steel revolvers.)

I dunno. I'm no expert on the 10mm and since I've rejected the .40 S&W, maybe I have no credibility. On the other hand, while on active duty carried, qualified with and shot a lot of .45 ACP for about 13 years until being issued, qualifying with, shooting and teaching the 9mm for another 13 years (during which period intermittently serving as a reserve deputy and police officer issued the 9mm & .40 S&W) before sequeing into the full-time law enforcement gigs), then being issued a .40 S&W for a bit before transitioning back to the 9mm...

Hey, whatever floats yer boat...

 

[Buzznrose]

I suppose it depends on who you're talking to. Glock never has offered their .45 Auto or 10mm guns in a Compact model. However, the Subcompact G29 and G30 approximate the size of the G19/G23.

You aren't going to get the grip dimension of the G19/G23 with a .45 Auto or 10mm as the rounds are too long to fit that grip size. Of course, that's why Glock made the G23 (.40 S&W, essentially 10mm short) and the G38 (.45 GAP, essentially .45 Auto short).

It might need the depth of the G29 SF but they could make it slimmer like a G23. I don’t know, may never happen. I just find the G29 a bit blocky for my grip.

The SA XDM 3.8 is a better size for me. I have the 4.5 XDM in 10MM so it would make sense for me as suggested earlier.

 

[Ks5shooter]

I am in a 10 round restricted state. So the advantage of the 23 would not apply to me. I wish it did and I would go for a 23 if that were the case.

 

[JR24]

I 100% agree with you. If I didn't spend time camping and hiking in areas where bear are a potential issue I'd not own a 10mm pistol. For me 10mm fills a small, but important niche.

I've owned a 10mm pistol for 20+ years. It is normally only carried when I'm hiking/camping in bear country. If I'm only concerned with 2 legged predators my 9mm or 45 ACP pistols are more than sufficient. Nothing wrong with 40 S&W, but I feel I have my bases covered without one, and I've owned a few in the past.

10mm is versatile enough that with less powerful loads to be perfectly fine for human threats. I've camped in Yellowstone and Montana twice and plan to go back next summer for a 3rd trip. I won't carry 2 guns. My 10mm pistol will be loaded with 200 gr hardcast loads at 1200-1300 fps when camped and hiking. But I'll also take several pre-loaded magazines with loads much closer to 40 S&W power levels. In fact all 3 of the 10mm pistols I've owned shot 40 S&W ammo just fine and they could be used in an emergency.

Agree with all this, it can be versatile but my niche for 10mm is wanting 200 grain bullets to penetrate deep into an animal.

Two legged stuff I tend to use 9mm or .45.

.40 is fine for when I want to almost have a .45, but want a few more bullets. Then I usually just carry the .45 anyway.

Now that I’m nowhere near brown bear territory my 10mm or .357 often get ignored for a .45 with 255 grain hard cast +Ps. Still penetrate well and my .45s are lighter for walking around nature.

 

[dbmjr1]

I'm not a Glock Fan Boi.
Cartridge development reached it's pinnacle when JMB came out with the .45ACP.
Besides, Real men measure their calibers in inches, not the metric system.
Real men also prefer metal firearms.
The 1911's straight pull trigger is the best trigger on a pistol, and it's over 110 years old.

All that said:

Around town I carry a G43X with Shield magazines.
The capacity in addition to the effectiveness of modern hollow points in the .355 caliber may have influenced this decision.

In the woods, where there may be bruin, I carry a G29 with handloaded FMJ's loaded to screaming velocities.
If I ever have to shoot a bear, I hope to put holes in two sides, front and back, simultaneously.
It'll work against two legged creatures too, with an adequate backstop.

I shoot those plastic, metric implements at the range, but I don't really enjoy it.

I really enjoy shooting my 1911's and revolvers.

 

[JohnKSa]

The ballistics of the 10mm overlap the ballistics of the 357 magnum.

10mm and .357Mag are pretty much identical whether you like power factor/momentum or energy as a measure. 10mm has a slight advantage in momentum/power factor with very heavy bullets, .357Mag has a slight advantage in energy with very light bullets, but trying to pick a winner is going to require something other than looking at pure terminal ballistics.

10mm: A larger...round...compared to .40

I guess it is, in terms of the overall length being longer. Bullet diameter is, of course, identical between the two rounds.

In average ccw sized guns (say 4" barrel or less), the ballistics can be strikingly similar compared to .40...

It is, of course, true that 10mm loaded to .40S&W levels has strikingly similar ballistics to .40S&W. This is how the .40S&W came to be in the first place. S&W noticed that the performance of lightly loaded 10mm ammo could be duplicated with a shorter round that would fit into a 9mm sized platform. Full power 10mm is going to show significant differences from .40S&W in any barrel length. To get a decent picture of the two rounds, one needs to compare top loadings of the two rounds--comparing lightly loaded 10mm to hot .40S&W, very obviously isn't going to give a reasonable idea of the actual performance difference. This is how people got the (very mistaken idea) that 10mm duplicates .41Mag performance. They compared a very lightly loaded .41Mag round to a near top-end loading for the 10mm and found that they were similar. They were, but the light .41Mag loading was not at all representative of true .41Mag performance.

 

[JTQ]

To get a decent picture of the two rounds, one needs to compare top loadings of the two rounds--comparing lightly loaded 10mm to hot .40S&W, very obviously isn't going to give a reasonable idea of the actual performance difference. This is how people got the (very mistaken idea) that 10mm duplicates .41Mag performance. They compared a very lightly loaded .41Mag round to a near top-end loading for the 10mm and found that they were similar. They were, but the light .41Mag loading was not at all representative of true .41Mag performance.

Your points are accurate, though I always thought the Elmer Keith .41 Magnum "Police Load" was a good, usable, level of power, and the .40 S&W does a pretty good job of coming close to match that level of power. In .40 S&W, the original 180 gr bullet weight always seemed like the best choice. The lighter weight .40 S&W bullets make less sense to me.

 

[JohnKSa]

...I always thought the Elmer Keith .41 Magnum "Police Load" was a good, usable, level of power, and the .40 S&W does a pretty good job of coming close to match that level of power.

A lot of people did, that's why the FBI was loading their 10mm down to that level in the first place--a decision that led to the development of the .40S&W and made it viable to begin with. Also why .40S&W became so popular. I don't think many people would argue that the .40S&W is not an effective LE/SD cartridge.

Just pointing out none of that is the same thing as being able to say that .40S&W is "strikingly similar" to the 10mm--unless the 10mm is intentionally loaded down.

 

[JTQ]

I don't disagree, though this conversation makes me feel like it's still 1990.

 

[Viper2]

10mm has been my daily carry since 1991. I have always carried CorBon ammo since it has become available in that caliber. (For the first few years, I carried Winchester Silvertips.) The CorBon loads have always been either the 150grn Nosler JHP, or the 135grn Nosler JHP once it became available. And the 135grn JHP CorBon is what I still carry today.

In either of those loads, the energy and tissue destruction (as implied by gel tests) is even more than that created by the vaunted and respected .357mag 125grn JHP. A proven man-stopper.

And just like the comparison between .38spl. and .357mag,... yes, the .40S&W is a capable cartridge in capable hands. But the 10mm is just more so. I would not feel under-armed with a .40 in a pistol I am competent with. But if I am equally competent with the 10mm in a similar fashion,...why wouldn't I carry the 10mm?

Do I recommend the 10mm for everybody? Hell no! Not everybody can handle the recoil of the even the .40S&W! For new shooters or small people without the hand and arm strength of the typical American male, I say the 9mm is very capable of fulfilling the role of every day carry. BUT,...if you are dedicated to being a shootist,...and willing to put in the extra effort to master the beast,...yes, the 10mm is worth it.

 

[someguy2800]

Nope I want it in a G48/43x platform.

Yeah that's what I would want as well, a small single stack lightweight 10mm. I have a Kahr P40 that I like and shoot a lot, if they made a 10mm that might be interesting enough for me to get back into 10mm. There are a few compact singe stack polymer 45's on the market like the CW45, Glock 36, Shield 45, and the XDS 45. It would not be that complicated to make a 10mm out of one of those platforms since they already have the magazine length.

 

[Buzznrose]

I'm not a Glock Fan Boi.
Cartridge development reached it's pinnacle when JMB came out with the .45ACP.
Besides, Real men measure their calibers in inches, not the metric system.
Real men also prefer metal firearms.
The 1911's straight pull trigger is the best trigger on a pistol, and it's over 110 years old.

All that said:

Around town I carry a G43X with Shield magazines.
The capacity in addition to the effectiveness of modern hollow points in the .355 caliber may have influenced this decision.

In the woods, where there may be bruin, I carry a G29 with handloaded FMJ's loaded to screaming velocities.
If I ever have to shoot a bear, I hope to put holes in two sides, front and back, simultaneously.
It'll work against two legged creatures too, with an adequate backstop.

I shoot those plastic, metric implements at the range, but I don't really enjoy it.

I really enjoy shooting my 1911's and revolvers.

Hey, it’s okay! You really don’t need to apologize or be embarrassed for owning and carrying Glocks. Glad you have a 1911 and revolver…your “man card” is secure!

Honestly, I can’t tell if this post was satire or insecurity

 

[Old Dog]

I shoot those plastic, metric implements at the range, but I don't really enjoy it.

Yet you still carry them?

I don't understand this. I cannot carry a handgun that I don't enjoy shooting.

Although I was hungry and, in a hurry, today so I did go through the McDonald's drive-through, got two McDoubles with cheese, but I didn't really enjoy it.

 

[fastbolt]

Just a couple points the FBI never issued full power 10mm, they basically knew going in there was too much blast and recoil for the average agent to shoot well. The load they tested and eventually adopted was a handload with a 180gr (Sierra JHC IIRC) loaded to 980 FPS. Back in the early 90s I acquired a few boxes of the Federal FBI loading and a big box of brass imma still using.

The FBI also issued a 190gr JHP at one point. I remember Federal offered such an attenuated 10mm load for them. The original 180-190gr 10mm loads for the FBI stayed within the 950-1050fps range, as I recall. That's why going to the 180gr .40 S&W was such a handy transition, and even more so since the shorter .40 allowed for a shorter 9mm grip frame to be used, instead of the .45/10 sized pistols.

 

[SDGlock23]

The biggest issue with the FBI not going with 10mm wasn't recoil, the load they used was effectively a typical .40 S&W level loading, but rather the size of the gun itself. That's pretty much the reason .40 even exists at all, as it's able to give good performance from a 9mm sized handgun.

I have and shoot both .40 and 10mm and I'll say that if I had to choose just one, I'd pick .40 every time. That's not to say that I don't like 10mm, I have some nice guns chambered in the 10mm, but for carry purposes and really also for home defense, I always felt the .40 was essentially the perfect option. You do get more power with 10mm, but that comes at the cost of a bigger gun. While on the topic of power, I have two points. One, if I really need more power than .40 S&W, I'll likely grab the .44 Mag Ruger or S&W, although the .40 will work for deer sized game. Second, and this point is somewhat controversial, is that while the 10mm is more powerful, I don't feel that it's "far more" powerful. I say this because I've ran warm handloads through both and realistically the 10mm has about a 100 fps advantage over the .40, give or take ~25 fps depending on a heavy bullet vs. light bullet.

More is more, no doubt, but how much difference does that make in the long run? The 10mm is a very good and versatile option, but it gets praise while the .40 gets scorn. That doesn't make sense to me, as people often (in this very thread) want a 10mm sized G23, yet if one did exist, it wouldn't be appreciably better than the G23 already is. I can run a 180gr @ 1350 fps from a 5" 10mm and guess what, it'll work in the woods. But guess what else? So will factory level .40 S&W loads. If I can load a 180gr @ 1250 fps from a 5" .40 S&W, I guess I have to wonder what the 10mm really gives me, you know. It's more powerful but is it really that much more capable? But okay, I don't want to step on too many toes here so I'll quiet down a bit. I do get why the 10mm is popular, and that's because you can buy warmly loaded 10mm and have it shipped to your door, so really you don't need to handload to get a certain level of performance from your gun (whereas you do with .40)...basically it's just more convenient.

 

[mavracer]

The biggest issue with the FBI not going with 10mm wasn't recoil, the load they used was effectively a typical .40 S&W level loading, but rather the size of the gun itself. That's pretty much the reason .40 even exists at all, as it's able to give good performance from a 9mm sized handgun.

There was also some issues with the gun itself there was a recall on the decoder.
But yeah the 1076 is a beast and actually does a good job of taming the recoil of full power 10mm.

 

[JohnKSa]

The biggest issue with the FBI not going with 10mm wasn't recoil, the load they used was effectively a typical .40 S&W level loading, but rather the size of the gun itself.

They did actually go with the 10mm for awhile. I remember some 'gunriter' commenting on the irony that the FBI, a plainclothes organization, was carrying the full-sized 1076 while the CHP, a uniformed organization was carrying a .40S&W in a significantly smaller platform--can't remember now if it was a S&W offering or one of the Glocks.

 

[tommy.duncan]

There is no doubt I am a 10mm fan (Please look at my last posts).

I don't usually carry 10mm unless I am going into bear country.
I do have a Sig x10 and a FN 510 (Held hostage) that I am interested in carrying. The 357sig is good enough in normal situations.

 

[S.Crockett]

Well, since the 10mm Glock 20 is the Mil-issue sidearm of Denmark’s Sirius Sledge Patrol soldiers for defensive use against Polar bear attacks, it should suffice against 2-legged predators.

A 10mm 200grn slug @ 1200fps …. all day long.

The .40S&W is for Boomer grannies with arthritis wrists.

 

[LimaCharlie]

My 10mm handguns:

Two Colt Delta Elites


Six-inch and five-inch Springfield Armory TRP Operators


A Glock G40 MOS when I want more capacity

 

[Gun-Reck]

Well, since the 10mm Glock 20 is the Mil-issue sidearm of Denmark’s Sirius Sledge Patrol soldiers for defensive use against Polar bear attacks, it should suffice against 2-legged predators.

A 10mm 200grn slug @ 1200fps …. all day long.

The .40S&W is for Boomer grannies with arthritis wrists.

The point of that is: the 10mm Auto is a Field Round - for thicker animals.

The extra velocity and energy over the subsonic .40/180 gr., on a 10" human torso, punches no bigger hole, and is simply carried out the back.

At the cost of recoil/muzzle blast/pistol size/weight.

Know your intended target.

 

[ChiefTJS]

Just ordered my first 10mm. The S&W M&P Performance Center version with the fancy ports and all. I think a .40 S&W is just fine but the 10mm will do everything it will at lower pressure and if I want to get stupid I can.

 

[S.Crockett]

The point of that is: the 10mm Auto is a Field Round - for thicker animals.

The extra velocity and energy over the subsonic .40/180 gr., on a 10" human torso, punches no bigger hole, and is simply carried out the back.

At the cost of recoil/muzzle blast/pistol size/weight.

 

[WisBorn]

View attachment 1171378View attachment 1171379My XDM E Compact 10mm is one of my favorite pistols.. carries as easy as my 23
And has a great trigger

I have a XDM E compact also. Like it so far!

I will probably stay with a 10mm because of its versatility. Only CCW against two legged threats? I would go with a 9mm for more capacity and micro compact options.

 

[Gun-Reck]

View attachment 1173884

Denial - is neither fact nor explanation.

Given equal expansion and complete penetration?