.44 black powder revolver load for black bear

[grter]

I wouldn't do it. I don't think a cap and ball revolver or any pistol would have been the choice in the old days either. I would bet they valued their lives and lives of others that may be endangered by a wounded animal enough to choose an accurate rifle with a good stout load and sneak up at as safe (that means the further away the better) a distance as possible.

If I lived in a time where there were no trauma ERs or second chances I would avoid using a short range weapon with usually less accuracy and certainly less power on a large strong animal that can easily hurt or kill me.

I would carry the revolver for a backup but forget round balls, I would load up with conicals and a heavy charge to be used ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. In these modern days that backup revolver would be a .44 magnum that I have had plenty of range practice with and a high powered rifle that keeps good distance between me and that bear.

An AK-47 for deer hunting. It may not be what it was made for but I am almost positive it would make an excellent semi auto deer gun with plenty of back up shots since the 7.62x39 out of an AK has similar range and ballistics of America's all time favorite deer round the 30/30 winchester.

Bears can run about 34 miles an hour can beat a race horse in short sprints, can climb trees better than us, when they are charging you'll just see a mass of fur and constantly moving body parts making a precise shot difficult and you won't have much time to do it.

My opinion is if they are close enough for pistol range when charging bear spray (pepper spray) would be my best bet to stay alive with a pistol I am rolling the dice with the odds against me.

This is coming from someone who has never hunted but I read plenty of the stories from people who have and do. Someone I knew, an experienced hunter from a hunting family shot a black bear at a distance with a rifle from behind (it's life and death take no chances) while the bear was hugging a tree. The bear was in the town limits and vicinity of nearby houses. They took the hide and ate the meat.

Man those youtube videos out there of real charging bears, bear attacks, and bears climbing up trees real fast to confront hunters in tree stands are something to behold.

These predatory charging animals speeds don't seem obvious when watching youtube videos until I break out the stop watch and time how long it takes for them to reach their target after which I quickly realized there is no way I can even come close to moving that fast. This has given me a tremendous respect for what these animals are capable of and thankfully without getting hurt.

 

[midland man]

guys he's not talking about grizzley bears just black bears surely they ain't that tough compared to grizzly's...

 

[Slamfire]

You need to chronograph the loads in your pistol.My 3rd Model Dragoon takes 40 grains of BP, I think yours will be about 28 grains. I was not impressed with the velocities I read over my chronograph. Based on bullet weight and velocity, someone else can tell us whether this pistol is as powerful as a 38 Special or a 32 S&W Long, but I don't think my 44 caliber revolver is appropriate for game hunting, be it anything above a rabbit.

Colt 3rd Model Dragoon           

142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured GOEX FFG RWS cap       
 24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F   
   
Ave Vel = 785      
Std Dev = 30      
ES = 73      
Low = 741      
High = 814       
N = 4       


142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured GOEX FFG CCI#11 cap       
 24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F       

Ave Vel = 837     
Std Dev = 18     
ES = 56     
Low= 814     
High = 870     
N = 8     

142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured Pyrodex Rem #1 cap       
  24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F       
          
Ave Vel = 920   920   
Std Dev = 0       
ES = 0      
Low = 920      
High = 920       
N = 1       

too many solids caused chronograph to malfunction.

 

[drobs]

Our ancestors did what, exactly? We have 100yrs of handgun hunting with cartridge firearms to draw from. We don't have to guess what works and what doesn't. What is effective and what is a stunt. There are plenty of blackpowder handguns that would be effective on bear but a .44 cap `n ball revolver is not one of them.



The .30-30 is "less" than the 7.62x39 in what way, exactly???

He didn't say the 7.62x39 is an odd cartridge but that the AK is an odd rifle. It has a short barrel, very short sight radius, less than wonderful accuracy, a terrible trigger and a 30rd magazine. All that makes it "odd" for hunting, unless you're an elephant poacher.

My AK does 2 inch groups at 100yds. That should be good enough for deer right?

 

[midland man]

I own three 30-30 rifles and I wouldn't be scared to use them as I still hunt with these every year!!

 

[rodwha]

.


Yep.

I hike and walk and shoot off the forest trails around here and use the conical below. We have black bear and puma around here a'plenty. With 30 grains of T7 and that conical a mountain lion would be dead but not so sure about a bear. It would at least dissuade an attack. Regarding bear - my own purposes are purely defensive and I feel safe but I don't think I'd be hunting no bear with just my pistols. A intriguing notion though and they do work on pigs, after all - but bear are tough as old cobs;

From Accurate Molds.

View attachment 797819

The bears around where he is at run roughly like the average adult boar, though potentially a little bit bigger. Both can be tough, but both generally run when shot in the direction opposite the sound of the shot. But then that’s typically for either.

 

[rodwha]

Our ancestors did what, exactly? We have 100yrs of handgun hunting with cartridge firearms to draw from. We don't have to guess what works and what doesn't. What is effective and what is a stunt. There are plenty of blackpowder handguns that would be effective on bear but a .44 cap `n ball revolver is not one of them.

Tell that to the one recorded (that I’m aware of, and I’ve not looked much) grizzly, a much tougher bear than a black bear.

The .45 Colt has taken A LOT of animals in our continent and these cap n ball (1860/1858) replicate the lower end depending on the powder and projectile, or duplicate what’s commonly available today.

Granted it’s not what I’d choose as a primary weapon for that. What we know as the Dragoon was used on horseback to kill a lot of buffalo and those aren’t deer either.

As to the AK they are well known for their rudimentary sights and poor long(er) distance accuracy. Not a weapon meant for accuracy.

 

[rodwha]

My AK does 2 inch groups at 100yds. That should be good enough for deer right?

I’m a bit curious as the few I know of do no better than that at half that distance. But I have no idea who made them. However I’ve not ever heard of one having that sort of accuracy.

 

[rodwha]

I wouldn't do it. I don't think a cap and ball revolver or any pistol would have been the choice in the old days either. I would bet they valued their lives and lives of others that may be endangered by a wounded animal enough to choose an accurate rifle with a good stout load and sneak up at as safe (that means the further away the better) a distance as possible.

If I lived in a time where there were no trauma ERs or second chances I would avoid using a short range weapon with usually less accuracy and certainly less power on a large strong animal that can easily hurt or kill me.

I would carry the revolver for a backup but forget round balls, I would load up with conicals and a heavy charge to be used ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. In these modern days that backup revolver would be a .44 magnum that I have had plenty of range practice with and a high powered rifle that keeps good distance between me and that bear.

Indeed! I intended on moving to VA and figured I’d have to see just how good bear meat was as I’ve read of people raving about it. And so I created a heavy bullet for my ROA that weighs 285 grns. But it was never intended to be a primary hunting projectile (unless I resized it for a rifle). It was in case I had to go find it. A rifle is what I’d want despite the pistol potentially being able to handle it, which it can. I like more than what I feel is the minimum, especially if it can hurt me and wants to.

And like you I feel pepper spray is the first, more logical, first defense, but also intend to have more as a secondary if I find myself in that situation.

 

[rodwha]

You need to chronograph the loads in your pistol.My 3rd Model Dragoon takes 40 grains of BP, I think yours will be about 28 grains. I was not impressed with the velocities I read over my chronograph. Based on bullet weight and velocity, someone else can tell us whether this pistol is as powerful as a 38 Special or a 32 S&W Long, but I don't think my 44 caliber revolver is appropriate for game hunting, be it anything above a rabbit.

Colt 3rd Model Dragoon           

142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured GOEX FFG RWS cap      
 24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F  
  
Ave Vel = 785     
Std Dev = 30     
ES = 73     
Low = 741     
High = 814      
N = 4      


142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured GOEX FFG CCI#11 cap      
 24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F      

Ave Vel = 837    
Std Dev = 18    
ES = 56    
Low= 814    
High = 870    
N = 8    

142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumic Measured Pyrodex Rem #1 cap      
  24 July 1999 T= 99 -100  ° F      
         
Ave Vel = 920   920  
Std Dev = 0      
ES = 0     
Low = 920     
High = 920      
N = 1      

too many solids caused chronograph to malfunction.

Standard Goex is woeful, like many others, which is why I stated using an energetic powder which would add quite a bit more to what you found.

Pyrodex is an oddball as usually I’ve seen dismal velocities as well but once in a while it can keep up with energetic powders. Because it can vary so much, and I don’t like the fouling it leaves or the corrosion it’s known for, I won’t recommend it to anyone. If you’d like I can give you plenty of chronographed results of better powders that compare them side by side. It’s a world of difference.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

The idiomatic phrase “loaded for bear” like “give it both barrels” was probably based on a lot of collective real world experience and outcomes. I expect that originally it meant exactly what it says.

 

[CraigC]

Tell that to the one recorded (that I’m aware of, and I’ve not looked much) grizzly, a much tougher bear than a black bear.

The .45 Colt has taken A LOT of animals in our continent and these cap n ball (1860/1858) replicate the lower end depending on the powder and projectile, or duplicate what’s commonly available today.

Granted it’s not what I’d choose as a primary weapon for that. What we know as the Dragoon was used on horseback to kill a lot of buffalo and those aren’t deer either.

As to the AK they are well known for their rudimentary sights and poor long(er) distance accuracy. Not a weapon meant for accuracy.

We don't have to rely on all that old myth, legend and anecdotal nonsense about the .45Colt knocking over horses or buffalo hunting with Dragoons. Adding 100-200fps to a swaged lead roundball doesn't make much difference on game anyway. Based on what we actually know, from actually doing it or learning from the detailed accounts of those who have actually done it, more gun is absolutely preferable. What we KNOW, is that there is a HUGE difference between a swaged round ball and a hardcast 250-270gr SWC or LBT.

guys he's not talking about grizzley bears just black bears surely they ain't that tough compared to grizzly's...

They're a lot tougher than deer and a .44 percussion revolver would be considered marginal for that.

 

[rodwha]

We don't have to rely on all that old myth, legend and anecdotal nonsense about the .45Colt knocking over horses or buffalo hunting with Dragoons. Adding 100-200fps to a swaged lead roundball doesn't make much difference on game anyway. Based on what we actually know, from actually doing it or learning from the detailed accounts of those who have actually done it, more gun is absolutely preferable. What we KNOW, is that there is a HUGE difference between a swaged round ball and a hardcast 250-270gr SWC or LBT.



They're a lot tougher than deer and a .44 percussion revolver would be considered marginal for that.

 

[rodwha]

We don't have to rely on all that old myth, legend and anecdotal nonsense about the .45Colt knocking over horses or buffalo hunting with Dragoons. Adding 100-200fps to a swaged lead roundball doesn't make much difference on game anyway. Based on what we actually know, from actually doing it or learning from the detailed accounts of those who have actually done it, more gun is absolutely preferable. What we KNOW, is that there is a HUGE difference between a swaged round ball and a hardcast 250-270gr SWC or LBT.



They're a lot tougher than deer and a .44 percussion revolver would be considered marginal for that.

There wouldn’t be myth, legend, or anecdotal evidence nonsense of the .45 Colt used through a Dragoon as that was well before it’s time, and by quite some time as the 1860 Army and 1863 NMA was well before these with the Colt becoming the precursor to what we knew of as the 1873 using the .45 Colt.

Regardless, if you would have read the post, that a ball wasn’t in the equation. It went well beyond thinking a ball was adequate, and in fact even a projectile the same length but much heavier, and with a wide meplat, I didn’t consider a good option. Didn’t you read that?

I’m surprised with all of this knowledge you have that you see even a ball from a .44 cal revolver as inadequate for deer when we see it produces just what a .490” ball does at 100 yds (with powders commonly used such as 80 grns of Pyrodex RS) but seems to bring home venison all too often producing complete passthroughs. Seems to work just fine for those who’ve done it. Maybe it’s the chosen powder?

 

[drobs]

I’m a bit curious as the few I know of do no better than that at half that distance. But I have no idea who made them. However I’ve not ever heard of one having that sort of accuracy.

Most that complain about the inaccuracy of the AK (or semi-auto versions) either don't have that much experience with them or just aren't very good shooters to begin with.

 

[midland man]

Most that complain about the inaccuracy of the AK (or semi-auto versions) either don't have that much experience with them or just aren't very good shooters to begin with.

yep drobs don't feel bad for years people told me that the 30-30 was only good for a 100yrds but that's bull as I have shot and killed deer out to 200yrds not a problem using 170gr sierra with 33.6grs of Winchester 760 powder but I just laugh at the stupidity I hear about the good ol'e 30-30...

 

[drobs]

30-30 beats out 7.62x39 with wider range of bullet weights available for the 30-30 cartridge.

 

[rodwha]

Our ancestors did what, exactly? We have 100yrs of handgun hunting with cartridge firearms to draw from. We don't have to guess what works and what doesn't. What is effective and what is a stunt. There are plenty of blackpowder handguns that would be effective on bear but a .44 cap `n ball revolver is not one of them.



The .30-30 is "less" than the 7.62x39 in what way, exactly???

He didn't say the 7.62x39 is an odd cartridge but that the AK is an odd rifle. It has a short barrel, very short sight radius, less than wonderful accuracy, a terrible trigger and a 30rd magazine. All that makes it "odd" for hunting, unless you're an elephant poacher.

My response last night was a bit snarky. I’m sorry for being short like that.

 

[rodwha]

30-30 beats out 7.62x39 with wider range of bullet weights available for the 30-30 cartridge.

Especially if one handloads and has the options of aerodynamic bullets designed to perform at those lower velocities. Always liked the idea of a barrel in 30-30 AI for a T/C Contender.

 

[midland man]

30-30 beats out 7.62x39 with wider range of bullet weights available for the 30-30 cartridge.

maybe drobs but i never owned 7.62x39 but with that said i have shot one and i wouldn't feel undergunned if thats what i had but the reason i have a 30-30 is when i was 12yrs old my dad and mom purchased a brand new winchester 94 ranger model in 30-30 and now i'm 42 i still use that rifle and it still looks good today! i've killed alot of deer and hogs with it!

 

[rodwha]

There are several videos out that show a bit of what one can expect with cap n ball guns. Note the powders used and the performance achieved.

In this one Mr Beliveau tests a pair of ROAs with standard Goex and T7 using a ball and two bullets. He reduced the charge of T7 under the belief that its necessary for safety, which is not true. Their 15% reduction was to achieve a similar velocity as BP, which as you can see still didn’t do so (maybe through a rifle?).

That reduction might get one close to what an 1860 Army or NMA would hold as a max charge. I see my ROA holds about 5 more grains of powder compared to my Pietta NMA.



Here’s some ballistics gel testing:







Notice how a ball generally leaves a caliber sized hole. This is why I much prefer a wide meplat, which as Elmer proved, creates a wider than caliber hole as it doesn’t allow the flesh to stretch while it’s traveling through the meat, which is why I believe the Civil War vets he knew claimed the conicals of the day weren’t as good of a man stopper as the ball as they were very pointy.

The original .45 Colt load was 40 grns of powder under a 255 grn bullet. It was slowly neutered reducing the charge to 35 grns and then 30 and 28 but with a lighter 230 grn bullet like the Schofield, which became the basis for what was to become the .45 ACP.

The 33 grns (weight) of 3F Olde Eynsford (or Swiss or T7) would more than likely replicate something closer to the older .45 Colt performance as 3F is more energetic than 2F making up for a bit of the lack in powder charge. Quite frankly I’m not even certain of the performance of the powder(s) used at that time in those cartridges. If it was anything like standard Goex or the majority of powders available now then it likely out performs that original loading. As you can see, with a bullet, the ROA, even with a reduced load, nearly reaches 500 ft/lbs in Mr Beliveau’s test, and Olde E and Swiss generally produce slightly higher velocities in comparison and with a much smaller standard deviation.

photo upload for forum

pc screenshot

And here’s some various chronographed results:

http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

 

[expat_alaska]

Good luck with your endeavors, Maint, but I don't think I would do it either. You seem to have a few large blackies there and unless I was standing on my porch shooting one and could retreat to the house, I would rather have an accomplice with a centerfire rifle backing me up. They can be very nasty animals when threatened as I learned long ago in Alaska.

You take care, sir!

Jim

 

[whughett]

the most u can fit id have a spare cylinder loaded to if u got one more

And as high up in a tree as you can climb.

 

[maint1517]

Thanks for all the input and words of wisdom. I'll be in either my ladder stand or my climbing stand. Im just going to go with old faithful, my marlin 30-30. Yes, I'm a big fan of the 30-30 as well. It's taken its share of deer, hogs and black bear. Year before last I took a doe at 125 yds with it useing Hornady leverevalutions.
However, I will still be carrying my .357 as backup.

 

[Venom007]

Get a 500 Smith for big bruins.