"44 Minutes": North Hollywood Bank Robbery Movie on FX

[Nightcrawler]

Anybody see commercials for this movie? You see people that are either cops or are playing cops, apparently in an interview, saying things like:

"Unless you were there, you can't understand what it was like."

"They had AK-47s."

"It was like a war zone."

Now, normally I have a policy of never criticizing anyone else's performance in a firefight. I've never been shot at, and never having done that, I'm certainly not going to judge anyone who has, as I have no way of knowing if I'd do any better myself (those who live in glass houses, blah blah blah; last thing I need is to act like mister big shot here, then pee myself the first time a round comes my way, right?).

HOWEVER...

Find a couple Vietnam vets, or now, Iraq War vets, and tell them about how scary two untrained goons with AK-47s are. Explain to them how half the Los Angeles Police Department was pinned down by two guys with rifles, who weren't even aiming or using any sensible tactics, for the better part of an hour.

Yes, yes, I know, the LAPD didn't have rifles. But guys weren't wearing armor on their legs or faces. It took them about a half hour to figure out to shoot the badguys in the legs, I noticed.

I know the patrol officers didn't have rifles. Is there any reason SWAT wasn't sent in? Is there any reason they couldn't deploy a sniper?

The problem here seems to be a lack of training issue. There's no reason the literally dozens of cops on the scene shouldn't have been able to take down the two guys, Kalashnikovs or no.

Seems to me way to prepare for situations like this is two fold. For one, make rifles available to the patrol officers. Not necessarily the latested tricked out AR-15s, either. Hell, one level-headed cop with a Garand would've been able to end that situation in about a minute.

For two, rifle/shotgun/handgun training should be increased, too.

Problem is, can all of this be done on the typical budget of a police department? That's the problem when you don't have officers who are also shooters, I guess; they don't like to practice on their own time.

So, what do you think? Am I being too hard on the LAPD? I'm not saying I could've done any better myself, but logically one would assume that the side with the vast numerical advantage would've won easily, not 44 minutes later after they raided a gunshop to get some rifles. (Ironically, that gun shop is now closed, I believe, due to the increasingly anti-gun climate in urban California.)

 

[spacemanspiff]

have you watched the documentary's shown on the discovery channel about the shootout? it paints it in a different picture, showing how officers were pinned down immediately and were stranded behind their cover, and how some of their cover wasnt providing much cover as they were still sustaining wounds from rounds perforating their cover or ricocheting off the ground or other objects.

the BGs did seem to have a sense of how to operate their weapons, how to move while firing, and they effectively held off the police. they werent just spray and praying, they kept steady streams of fire on the officers positions.

simply a case of the BGs being in the most tactical place and having the tactical upper hand overall.

 

[blades67]

The bank robbers were wearing Level III armor from head to toe and they were looking to try to kill some of the LAPD. The LAPD wasn't prepared for that.

 

[Pendragon]

What would have been effective against that Level III?

Standard .308 or would you need to have AP rounds?

maybe a 22-250?

 

[warrior23]

when is this supose to air? did i miss it.I think the way the BGs were on the move kept snipers from getting into position.I know I heard the POs that did take rifles out of that gunshop were sued.Its really a shame that the police depts across the country dont equip there people better.

 

[TechBrute]

Yes, the BGs could shoot. They used reasonable skill in fending off the LEOs. Also, I'm sure there was a sure case of "too many donuts and too little range time" on the part of the LEOs. If you watch the footage of the robbery, the LEOs looked like the Keystone Cops. It's a friggin AK, not a M1A1 main battle tank. I'm sure I would have wet my pants if it had been me, but you'd think that out of the 40+ responding officers, someone would have figured out to get them in a crossfire and take headshots or legshots.

 

[TechBrute]

Level III is vulnerable to .308. There are trauma plates for .308, but just Level III won't cut it.

 

[Correia]

I wasn't there. Therefore I have no clue what was going on.

But I'm always amazed by the bravery, skill, physical fitness and good looks exhibited by folks who weren't there.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I've always wondered why the LEOs didn't take the armored car they commandeered to evacuated pinned down people and simply run down the shooters, especially the one that was walking.

 

[Devonai]

I rented the unedited home video on this incident. From what I could tell, the BGs responded with so much firepower that the cops were stunned into total confusion.

I am in awe of the bravery and heroism of the police officers there that day. But as a soldier I know a lot about fire and movement tactics. If the majority of the officers responding were trained by the US military, things might have gone down differently. That is an assumption on my part, for all I know the majority of officers there that day WERE all IRR soldiers and Marines. But I'd be inclined to think that they were not.

 

[Nightcrawler]

They weren't covered "head to toe" in body armor; one of them was killed by being shot in the head. I don't believe they were wearing helmets.

Making a headshot would've been very challening with a pistol, obviously, which is why they cops should've had rifles (though I'm thinking if they could get close enough, a shotgun would've done, and the cops were very close to the robbers on several occasions).

I dunno about the robbers' tactics; I remember them walking down the street, just taking pot shots at everybody. They weren't moving very fast, they weren't leapfrogging, they weren't using any kind of cover. This did get them killed, by the way, when they stopped using cover.

They were hopped up on something, I think; armor or no, you don't take that many hits and not flinch (unless they weren't hit that much?).

Correia, I made a point of saying I don't think that I, personally, could've done better. But I would like to think that me and a hundred of my (armed) friends, helicopter support, and (apparently) an armored car, could handle two guys on PCP with AK-47s. I've only had fairly basic combat training, so I can't say for sure.

Anyway, the special airs in June. I've seen the Discovery Channel documentary. It talked about how devastating, and poweful, and deadly a weapon the AK-47 is, blah blah blah. The special made the AK-47 sound like it was some kind of 50-foot tall battlemech with plasma cannon or something.

The big thing that perhaps needs to be improved (and perhaps has been) is the coordination of officers in these kinds of situations. Perhaps the reason the cops couldn't outflank and take these guys out is because they weren't coordinated or acting as a team; you just had dozens of cops all over the place, with no one directing the fray. Even with the vast numerical and logistical advantage the LAPD had in that shootout, it can be hard to win a firefight if your team is running around like a chicken with its head cut off. You need teamwork to prevail in combat.

 

[Correia]

Nightcrawler, I wasn't insulting you. In fact I'm in agreement with your assesement of the situation.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Ah....

For the record, I am fabulously good looking, talented, smart, smooth, and courageous.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

(You forgot trustworthy, thrifty, clean and reverent.)

 

[spacemanspiff]

well i am a smartass, and my rolls of fat have made my skin nice and smooth, plus i have a touch of courage, does that count for anything?

 

[Dr.Rob]

If I recall correctly the bad guys were both Ex GI's.

They still lost.

 

[Mark D]

Shock is a big player in combat. I wouldn't be surprised if the responding LEO's were just flat out too stunned to be effective. Unless your seasoned, it is difficult to get your brain out of "flight" mode once it gets there. Most of histories great military massacres happened during the losing sides rout, not during the battle proper. I can see how an ounce of disorganization and a pound of confusion/ducking for cover could throw the whole LEO response into disarray.

Praise God that the perps were not coordinated in their offense. A tiny bit of prep and comm on their side would have dreadfully outmatched the officers on the scene. We would count the damage they actually did as light compared to what they had the potential to do.

Hopefully, the LEO community at large has genuinely LEARNED the lessons that shootout taught. One of the biggest lessons is that your citizenry needs to be armed. That stunt would not have been possible in rural town. The shootout would have ended as soon as the free people of the effected municipality responded with their own weaponry… A prairie dog may take some skill to hit at three-hundred yards, but a bank robbers head is a snap at a mere one-hundred.

 

[BowStreetRunner]

LOL
Mark, I love the prarie dog comment
so true

 

[John Harrison]

one of them was killed by being shot in the head. I don't believe they were wearing helmets.

In the video I saw it looked like he shot himself underneath the chin. Did anyone else see this or am I imagining it?

 

[Pendragon]

Interesting when viewed through the prism of what a citizen militia could do against "The Man" if properly prepared.

Imagine if it was 4 people with a plan.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

In the video I saw it looked like he shot himself underneath the chin.

Yep. He shot himself.

 

[280PLUS]

i don't think there was one police force anywhere in the country at that time that had planned ahead of time to do battle with automatic weapons.

i'll bet theyre better prepared now.

meanwhile there goes the media, once again cashing in on yet another tragic event

 

[Apple a Day]

According to a previous show on Discovery channel one of the bad guys was approaching a cop, hispanic dude whose name I can't remember. He ducked around a semi- at one point. The cop swapped a few rounds with the guy, was terrified that the guy was coming after him, supposedly fired one more carefully aimed shot which hit the guy in the neck at nearly the same instant that the goblin turned his own gun on himself.
I ain't vouchin' for it, folks, I'm just repeating what the show claimed. The bad guy went down like a load of bricks.
IIRC the other guy was brought down by three or four officers who had been at some sort of training exercise and had nabbed ARs on the way to the scene. One guy was in such a hurry he showed up in body armor and a pair of ugly shorts. They shot the goblin a bunch of times with .223 and it still took a while for him to bleed out... corresponding lawsuit with family claiming that the LEOs stood by and let the guy die on purpose.
It should be an interesting show.

 

[280PLUS]

as far as i'm concerned...

the LEO's get first preference to medical treatment and when all the LEO's are taken care of then we can worry about the goblin. if he dies in the process? well, nobody told him to rob a bank and start shooting up the neighborhood...

 

[Matt1911]

Not to break out the tin foil hats but,i heard,"thousands of rounds fired",and ,"11 people hurt,no deaths".How can that be on a crowded street?Were they trying not to kill anyone? I just don't see it.....