44 Spl or 45 LC in a double action revolver?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Slamfire

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
13,200
Location
Alabama
I was reading in this months Handloader, Mike Venturino was testing S&W classic revolvers. He had the choice of a M24 (44 Spl) or a M25 (45LC). He said he did not like 45LC in double action revolvers, and tested the 44 Spl.

What would you prefer?
 
In a Ruger, 45 Long Colt...

In a S&W, 44 Special....Venturino got this one right...

Giz
 
I prefer the .44 in a DA. The single action is the "natural home" of the Colt -- although there's nothing, of course, wrong with it in a DA!
 
The .45 Colt was fine with the Single Action Army because the SAA has a rod ejector.

But when the Army adopted the Colt New Service as the Model 1909, they found that the tiny rim of the .45 Colt tended to slip past the extractor and hang up the gun. They ended up making their own .45 ammo with a larger rim.

That problem has not gone away. Go with the .44 Special.

Jim
 
Well, I currently own two older Model 25s (4" and 6") in 45LC (not those faux-antique, ILS-equipped abominations they sell these days).
I used to own two S&Ws (a 396 and a 696) in 44 Spl. The older 24s and 624s are attractive, but I have enough calibers already. :)

Does that tell you where I come down in this debate?
 
I'm not sure, but wasn't there some issues with the cylinder bore size versus the forcing cone to barrel bore on some S&W's chambered in .45LC...Have they corrected that with the newer guns?

giz
 
the rim diameter of the 45 Colt is .512 the 44 mag is.514 don't understand the big deal. I have a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt and the extractor is a different design than the 44 and I keep asking ,WHY? I love my DA 45 Colt.
 
It is not the actual rim diameter, it is the effective rim diameter, the part that is larger than the cartridge base. If that is too small, there is not much for an extractor to work with, whether it is a DA revolver extractor or the extractor of a rifle.* That small rim, and the consequent extraction problem, is the reason no one in the old days ever made a rifle in .45 Colt.

Now rifles are made in .45 Colt and owners are complaining about extraction trouble. The more we forget, the more we have to re-learn.

*The reason the .45 Colt has a small rim is because Colt wanted to keep close to the same cylinder diameter in the SAA that was used in the .44 Army percussion revolver. That meant that the chambers were too close together to fit in cartridges of a normal rim diameter and still go with the .45 caliber the Army wanted. The only choice was to reduce the rim to the point where it would be just enough to support the case; in the SAA no larger rim was needed.

Jim
 
If you reload, 45 long colt. It is a VERY versatile round.

If not I prefer the 44 Special

Under no circumstances would I purchase a Smith with an internal lock. I would rather send money to Sarah Brady.

Have fun.
 
.4570 case body of .44 Spec. but has a .5120 rim
The case diameter of the .44 is smaller making the rim difference larger
.4800 case body of .45 Colt and the rim is only .5140 rim.

No shelf for the .45 extrractor to grab onto. Any rock climber understands that problem.
 
One of my EDC guns is a S&W M21 Thunder Ranch.
The gun is a shooter.
I am down to only .45 acp and .44 special.
I reload for both.
I am picking up my S&W M22 .45 cap Thunder Ranch next week.
I would suggest the M21 to anyone thinking about a .44 special.
Mine is delocked.


Jim
 
I bought a .45 Colt Model 25 Mountain gun since I already had a single action in .45 Colt. Haven't had any functional problems yet; performs and ejects just fine through a thousand rounds or so with several diffent label brass.
 
Since getting my first IL-equipped revolver 9/02, I have shot tens of thousands of rounds through a myriad of them, from the 642 I carry in my pocket to my .44 Magnums to my competition .45 ACPs. I only notice them when I clean the revolvers - and, of course, would never buy a revover because it had one any more than I would exclude one from purchase due to it's prescence.

The large rimmed/short cased variant of the .45 Colt came about in the Colonel Schofield adaptations to the S&W Model 3, originally of .44 Russian fame (1871). The enlarged rim was needed for the Model 3's extractor, as it was a top-break SA that emptied it's chambers when 'broken', permitting rapid reloading. While the '.44 Russian' variant had quite a following, selling more examples in it's first decade than Colt's .45 Colt would sell into the next century, it was not adopted by the US Calvary. The shortened .45 round - the .45 S&W/Schofield of 1875 - was, to a limited extent. It's ammo would fit the Peacemaker, but the Peacemaker's was too long to fit the Schofield, thus the label of short and long Colt rounds - and a logistics nightmare, resulting in the Schofields little use. You can still buy specialty .45 Schofield loaded ammo - and buy the brass (Starline). It works great in a .45 Colt Redhawk for reliable ejecting, otherwise care must be used - the drooping ejector rod can skim over the .45 Colt's rim.

I tired of SA revolvers and both the .454 SRH and .45 RH DAs I had, preferring the dependability of the S&W 625 Mountain Gun that started my S&W collection 8/02. I added an older variant - and, besides my Rossi/Puma SS 24" M1892 levergun in .45 Colt, they are it now for .45 Colt. They shoot tighter groups at 25-50 yd with .45 Colt-ish loads (Recall the .45 Colt is a 14kpsi round.) than any of my Rugers would, although the .454 SRH, admittedly scoped and from bags, outgroupped it at 50 yd - with real .454 Casulls. As to 'power level', I stay within SAAMI specs - if I need more, I get a hotter caliber. The S&W SS 625 series - like the CS 25 series - is built on a frame, barrel, & cylinder forged & heat-treated for the .45 ACP - which is a 22kpsi round, so one could go '+P' with some assurance of longevity - not me, of course. Besides, their is something neat about a S&W revolver with 'Colt' emblazoned on it's barrel.

Now, if you like .44 Special - and reload - get a 629! Yes, I know it's a .44 Magnum - but it will chamber poppers in .44 Russian, the whole range of mild to Keith-level .44 Specials, and even real .44 Magnums. Be sure to clean the crud from the short cased rounds before chambering Magnums. Oh, I like my limited diet AirLite/Ti 296 - it is one of my pocket protectors. I also like my 696 - a fun popper with .44 Russians. Both have a minimalist's interpretation of a forcing cone, dictated by the thin front frame of the L-frame. The N-frame, like the 29/629 employs, is considerably thicker there. The 3" 696 has a cult following that has made it's used price soar - you can buy a new 4" 629 for less - and be happier - at only six more ounces, too.

Both calibers are reloaders dreams - and non-reloader nightmares. Poor availability of ammo and high cost isn't fun - the .45 Colt is why I started reloading. If I could decide which was better, I wouldn't have both. If I didn't reload, I'd consider curtain #3 - the .45 ACP - a S&W 625JM, for example. You have a large bore that is frugal - both in ammo cost and recoil - yet effective. No worry about bullet shapes - or power levels - no action, a la a 1911, to work. Ammo is everywhere - WallyWorld had, before the mad ammo gluttony attacks, UMC 230gr ball for <$82/250 rounds - that's hard to beat.

Any of the three will be fun - you'll love the big old bullets lumbering along, too. Big boom and push, not a raucious ear-splitting crack and a snap, a la with Magnums. Enjoy!!

Stainz
 
Neither One.

Get a .44 magnum, a S&W 629 or get a .44 magnum super blackhawk.
That way you have a very versatile gun that can shoot .44 special or .44 magnum, and you can load the magnum down to special level, if you reload.

If you dont reload its still versatile, because there are lots of factory loads for .44 magnum and .44 special, and they are not as pricey as those fancy high powered .45 Colt loads.
 
What if I want a lightweight and compact .44, and am not ever going to need the Magnum power level??
 
I own both, M21 and M625. I prefer the M21, 44 special, about 99% of the time. I also own the M22, 45acp and love that one almost as much.. I thought I wanted a 625 but have been dissapointed.
 
Jim Keenan said:
But when the Army adopted the Colt New Service as the Model 1909, they found that the tiny rim of the .45 Colt tended to slip past the extractor and hang up the gun. They ended up making their own .45 ammo with a larger rim.

That problem has not gone away.

I've now shot in excess of 200 rounds out of my Ruger KRH-45-4 (.45 Colt with 4" barrel) without ANY trouble ejecting the empty cases and no FTFs ... another supposed problem with the Rugers. If I believed every post on this board I'd never buy anything. :confused:

I have a S&W 629 which is a perfectly fine revolver. If I had to give up one though it'd be the S&W but since I don't I'm keeping both.

RRH_45C.jpg


:)
 
Last edited:
Jim Keenan said:
Now rifles are made in .45 Colt and owners are complaining about extraction trouble. The more we forget, the more we have to re-learn.

What extraction trouble? :confused: I have a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt and haven't had a single problem with it, either loading it, firing it or ejecting fired cases and I've shot about 200 rounds through that too. I've tried Trail Boss loads, W231 loads and H110 loads with 200gr and 250 gr bullets without any problems.

I will admit I had some "teething" trouble when I started loading for the .45 Colt but those issues are behind me now. As for shooting a rifle, SA or DA revolver in .45 Colt ... it's way too much fun with loads all the way from mild to wild.

:)
 
I am glad no one here has ever had any problems with the .45 Colt in a rifle or a swing cylinder revolver. But just because you didn't have a problem doesn't mean no one else ever has or that the problem never occurs.

Jim
 
Winchester didn't make an 1892 lever gun until well into this century due to extraction problems. That said, my Rossi/Puma 24" SS octagon barrel M1892 has been flawless in it's performance. It won't pass the wide rimmed .45 Schofields through it's gate, of course, making their use only possible as a single shot!

My 5.5" SS Redhawk would jam if you quickly ejected the empties holding the revolver horizontally. Held vertically - or even at a steep angle, and ejection became 100% reliable, especially if 'Hollywood' raps were avoided. Generally, the .45 Colt empties would almost fall out anyway, whether a Ruger or S&W DA. This is due to the infamous 'black powder chamber' standards everyone but Freedom Arms and some custom makers still employ. Chambers are reamed to the largest SAAMI spec ID to permit more blackpowder fouling between cleanings, something not necessary today with smokeless propellants. Note the smoke trail along what was the top of the spent cases. Many assume that the case didn't obturate to the proper diameter to seal the chamber... they won't at .45 Colt 14 kpsi levels. The cases clean easily - and the loose cartridges don't affect accuracy - much.

I see S&W has the 625MG in .45 Colt on their site again - fun shooter. I guess I know what I am taking to the range this AM. Below are my 625MGs in .45 Colt - my current entire .45 Colt handgun collection! My first-ever S&W, the 625-7 MG ('01) with the Ahrends square conversion and a LN no box 625-6 ('96) with S&W Dymondwood Combats as a shooter. I keep Speer #4484 250gr Gold Dots for protection - some 255gr LSWCs, too - both at ~880 fps from that 4" barrel. The shorty is a 200gr LRNFP at 700 fps in a Starline Schofield case - a real mild popper.

IMG_0211.gif

I remember Venturino's mag dialogue with Taffin over the .45 ACP/AR negating the need for the .45 Colt a few years back. I have to agree - I regularly shoot .45 Colt bullets loaded faster (hotter) in .45 Auto Rim cases from my 4" 625 than I ever do standard .45 Colts in one of my MGs. The .45 Auto Rims don't need a moonclip in the .45 ACP 625s, their thick full rim making ejection simple. Plus, they are kind of neat looking - especially with a 255gr LSWC loaded! The .45 ACP 625 is a viable alternative for those who don't reload.

Stainz
 
I do enjoy my S&W 624 (.44 Sp) but -even owning two .45 Colt SA revolvers- would love a .45 Colt equivalent . A blue 25 would be nice, regardless of barrel length (4" or 6") .
 
RP brass has a tendency to slip under the ejector if I am not carefull in my 25-2, but the other brass I have has not caused a problem. (A few CBC, a few Top Brass, Win, Starline) The rims on the RP brass are slightly less in diameter as well as rounded at the edge, which does not help either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top