45-70 reproduction rolling block rifle question

[DavidB2]

I love the history and simlplicity of Remington rolling block rifles. I would consider getting a reproduction rolling block in 45-70; but wondered about the strength of these rifles. Are they best suited for cowboy action loads or you safely shoot modern jacketed loads like the Federal or Remington 405 grain? How do these reproductions compare to the Sharps? Thanks for your insights.

 

[db_tanker]

most info I have seen says they are safe for all standard commercial available ammo.
the new rolling blocks are all tested for commercial standard ammo.
personally I'd do my own loads using cast bullets and bulky, fluffy powder like 4198, 5744 and trailboss.

 

[.308 Norma]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sharps-vs-rolling-block.792851/

 

[BSA1]

Well is shooting completely through the broadsides of a standing adult buffalo from sitting position using cross-sticks at 165 yards as measured by a laser range finder interest you?

No.

How about shooting a clean stage from sitting position using cross-sticks of a buffalo target about two feet tall and three feet wide from 600 yards?

Maybe???

With Soule type tang mounted rear sight and hooded front sight.

And using the same load for both of them.

Which is a 405 gr. cast lead bullet pushed by 35 grains of IMR 3031 for around 1250 fps. Very comfortable load for shooting a lot of ammunition in one session.

With results like that who needs jacketed bullets at 1800+ fps?

I have a friend that thinks 300 gr. jacketed bullet at 1800 fps. is the only way to load the 45-70. From his Marlin rifle it kicks like a mule. It is not the lease bit enjoyable to shoot.

p.s. I should add how much fun I have outshooting Shiloh Sharps that cost three times more than my Pedersoli Rolling Block.

 

[rule303]

The rolling block actions are plenty strong for modern ammo. Remember, the originals were chambered in 7x57 and a few other high pressure rounds. You mentioned the Federal and Remington commercial loads- those are fairly anemic, and are loaded to trap door Springfield pressure specs. The RB is easily strong enough for "Marlin level" loads, I wouldn't try the Ruger #1 only loads though.

 

[db_tanker]

lol I wouldn't wanna try the ruger loads IN a ruger

warm loads in my Contender (slightly over the anemic factory ammo) will leave you wondering why you went and done that...

 

[stoky]

Well is shooting completely through the broadsides of a standing adult buffalo from sitting position using cross-sticks at 165 yards as measured by a laser range finder interest you?

yes, but the anachronism makes me a little dizzy
Shiloh and Christian and Ballard........OH MY!

[/IMG]

 

[PapaG]

Stronger than trapdoors, weaker than Sharps or 86s. Had an original in 7mm and cases from old military ammo stretched somewhat. Had another 7 action, barreled it in 45-70 and had a ball with a 385 grain bullet seated in the rifling pushed by 5 grains of old DuPont bulk shotgun smokeless under 55 grains of DuPont ffg. One card wad.
Went as high as 75 grains of fffg and it kicked good.
1 1/4" for five at 100, 3 5/16 at 200.
I wouldn't hot rod a rb.
Had a Ballard that was rebarreled to 45-70 and I was cautious with it.
You want hot stuff, get a #1 or an '86.
Hell, 400 grains at anything over 1100 fps ought to drill through about anything in the lower 48.

 

[eastbank]

five of my seven 45-70,s, my other two are a siamese mauser and another marlin 95 . i don,t think you can have to many. the heavier loads are not just for killing, but to make it easier to hit your target at longer ranges. with a 400gr cast bullet at about 1400 fps zeroed at 100 yards, takes 22 clicks for 200 yards and at 300 yards it takes 52 clicks on my winchester high wall tang sight. a scope with clicks makes hitting at longer ranges easier, if you know the range just dial in the elevation, but you need the speed or your bullets will be comming down nose first at the near end of the bullets arc, instead of hitting straight on. eastbank.

 

[PapaG]

Forgot about those Siamese Mausers. Fantastic guns.
With my rolling block it took 96 clicks of the rear sight to go from 100 to 200 yard zero (24""). Only had about four threads left on the elevation adjustment.

 

[stoky]

Factory ammunition for .45-70 and 7x57 is loaded light, in deference to older guns (and those of dubious and questionable origin).
Only handloaders can realize their full potential.
I think it makes sense to delineate the guns that shoot .45-70 into three tiers, Trapdoors and Rolling Blocks antiques are among the weakest.
In the middle are Rolling Block reproductions from reputable manufactures, Sharps, Winchester 1886 and Hotchkiss.
The strongest (by a wide margin IMO) are Ruger #1s and 3s, Winchester, Browning and custom High Walls.
I'm aware that this isn't really a comprehensive list. Modern Marlin 1895s might belong near the strongest category.

 

[RPRNY]

The Pedersoli RB is suitable for any SAAMI spec ammunition.

But why oh why would one use that new-fangled devil's brew smokeless powder in the 45-70? 535 grs paper patched to .459" over 66 grs 1.5 Fg Old Eynsford will kill anything in North America and make small groups of holes in paper at many hundred yards, all while filling the air with the pungent smell of victory.

 

[stoky]

BP is also good in competition, if you can finagle your way to the upwind end of the firing line.

 

[BSA1]

Stronger than trapdoors, weaker than Sharps or 86s. Had an original in 7mm and cases from old military ammo stretched somewhat. Had another 7 action, barreled it in 45-70 and had a ball with a 385 grain bullet seated in the rifling pushed by 5 grains of old DuPont bulk shotgun smokeless under 55 grains of DuPont ffg. One card wad.
Went as high as 75 grains of fffg and it kicked good.
1 1/4" for five at 100, 3 5/16 at 200.
I wouldn't hot rod a rb.
Had a Ballard that was rebarreled to 45-70 and I was cautious with it.
You want hot stuff, get a #1 or an '86.
Hell, 400 grains at anything over 1100 fps ought to drill through about anything in the lower 48.

I am not sure I agree that a Rolling Block is weaker than the Sharps or 1886. They are all blackpowder cartridge guns.

The only way to get more velocity with blackpower rifles is to add more powder which mean lengthen the case. Because of the hammer being in line with chamber it is not possible to use as long as cartridge cases as the Sharps. However the Roller can be chambered in 50/90 which will rock you on your heels.

I load my Roller for about 1250 fps which is about what the blackpowder 45/70 runs.

 

[eastbank]

i shoot both black and smokless and depending on what type of actions used depends on the powder used. to me the sharps are the easiest to use black powder in as the action comes apart easy, next to me is the rolling blocks, next is the marlin 95,s, next the winchester low-high walls and ruger bringing up the rear. there is a lot of work to shooting black powder compared to smokless to get the accurcy you want, the cases need to be cleaned as the rifles do pretty quick after use, bullet alloy and lupe need to be thought out too. you have to love shooting black powder with all the things that must be done to do it right. smokless powder does let one enjoy shooting the older calibers with out the extra things and time it takes to do it. i shot a buffalo black powder match with my sharps 74 useing smokless for ****s and giggles and would have placed fourth if my score would have been used(a good shot may have shot a first place scope). i didn,t have to clean the bore or use a blow tube thru the whole match and shot the course in less than half the time allowed.. the loads i use are a 405gr cast FN- a 500 gr RN- a 525 gr postal bullet. i my self shoot black because i love shooting with the same type rifles and ammo my forefathers used. eastbank.

 

[CraigC]

I love the history and simlplicity of Remington rolling block rifles. I would consider getting a reproduction rolling block in 45-70; but wondered about the strength of these rifles. Are they best suited for cowboy action loads or you safely shoot modern jacketed loads like the Federal or Remington 405 grain? How do these reproductions compare to the Sharps? Thanks for your insights.

There are NO modern guns made for mousefart cowboy ammo. Any factory made rifle will be proofed for standard pressure factory ammo and that is where the "modern jacketed loads" you reference fall. Those are safe for any new or original rifle in good mechanical condition, the lowest common denominator being the Trapdoor.

I see no reference to the falling block on the Buffalo Bore website but if you call them, they will be able to tell you if they're strong enough for +P loads.

 

[Sunray]

Modern jacketed loads like the Federal or Remington are loaded to BP specs due to all the assorted Trap Doors, etc. out there. Unless the manufacturer, like Buffalo Bore, states otherwise.
The Sharps made today are reproductions themselves.

 

[Jim Watson]

SAAMI spec and the basis for Italian repro proof test is 28000 PPSI or CUP, it is the same by both methods.
Lyman says that will get you a 405 to 1800 fps which is way too much fun for me. I shoot a .40-65-404 at 1200 with real black and am quite content.

The Rolling Block is stronger than a Trapdoor, but I saw some demolition pictures and if you manage to wreck one, it is more dangerous than a Trapdoor. Kind of like the infamous low number 1903, when gas gets loose inside that enclosed box receiver, it just scatters in all directions.

 

[tark]

Lots of good info here. The black powder #1 action was (IS) stronger than a trapdoor but weaker than a sharps. The 1897 and 1902 actions were made from case hardened steel and could handle cartridges in the 45,000 PSI range. They were chambered in 30-30, .303 British, 7.62X54 Russian, 8mm Lebel and 30-40 Krag, among others. The action can be modernized and scaled up, modestly, to handle just about anything. The pics of my home made roller are self explanatory. Especially the caliber.

Modern replicas are made from modern steel of far better quality than the originals. I made mine out of 4140, professionally heat treated to RC40. I don't know what the Italians use but I would suspect it is 4140 also, or something close to it. They can handle any factory loaded 45-70 ammo.