.45-70 vs. .458 Win. Mag.

[TaxPhd]

Has anyone seen the penetration tests of these two calibers? There have been several of them, and the results are pretty surprising. .45-70 (using ammo typified by Garrett Cartridges 400-500 grn. hard cast lead bullets, at velocities from about 1,500 to about 2,000 fps.) has greater penetration then .458 Win. Mag. Test medium is wet newspapers.

A couple of years ago, a gentleman by the name of Vince Lupo took the African "Big 6" with a Marlin Guide gun, shooting Garrett ammo. He was vilified on a number of boards, including several that specialize in African hunting. Seemed like most of the arguments were along the lines of: "We don't care what Vince did - we hunt Africa, and we know that the .45-70 won't work. The penetration tests are meaningless."

I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. I have never hunted Africa, but I sure would like to some day. I probably wouldn't spend the money for a double rifle, but a Guide gun is very doable. And a lot faster than a bolt gun on follow up shots.




Scott

 

[Art Eatman]

Rich Lucibella of TheFiringLine.com had good success (1999, IIRC) with the .45-70 in Africa. Buffalo, among other critters.

In the Hunt forum at TFL, do a search; there are pictures...

Art

 

[mete]

There is a difference between possible and appropriate but many don't understand that. A cape buffalo or elephant can be killed with many cartridges if the bullet is placed properly. But a wounded charging one is a very different story. If it's charging anything you have will seem very small.

 

[BigG]

Where there's a will, there's a way.

The British in the heyday of the safari were very conservative with their hardware and used weapons that had a lot of overkill, with the exception of certain individuals like Karamojo Bell who used 6.5 and 7mm for his specialized technique for killing elephants. I believe that Karamojo also liked the 22 Savage Hipower and 220 Swift for certain applications that would be normally considered above and beyond their capabilities to most of us.

The reason I've disparaged 45/70 is based on the old BP loadings and the usual guns chambered for 45/70 would not handle Garrett pressures. A modern gun in 45/70 using high pressure ammo would be fine, imho. Just not have the cachet of an H&H or a Rigby.

Mete's comment is pertinent, however I understand most hunters have a guide backing them up, armed with a powerful rifle in the event of an emergency.

 

[SunBear]

Jeff Cooper has reported that some folks are using Marlin 45-70s on lion for the quick follow-up shots. If I remember correctly there are loads for the modern Marlin 45-70 that were w/in 200fps of 458 WM loads and if you go to the Ruger No. 1 the 45-70 will equal the 458 WM. I refer you to the reloading manuals. Check out the Hammerhead load from Buffalo Bore.

 

[TaxPhd]

What is interesting to me is the empirical evidence. Wet newspaper tests, hands down winner are the specialized .45-70 loads. In actual hunts, complete penetration on broadside buffalo shots. "Texas Heart Shots" that end up right under the skin of the chest (on buffalo).

Given the caliber, weight, meplat, bullet construction, and velocity, does the critter care if it came out a .45-70 or a more "acceptable" African caliber?



Scott

 

[Sunray]

Guys, it isn't the calibre that's the problem. It's the rifle. The .45-70 can be loaded to nearly .458 velocities, but if the rifle can't handle the pressures it doesn't matter.

 

[JohnKSa]

The tests often show that even at inferior velocities and much lower chamber pressures the 45-70 will out-penetrate the .458 given identical bullet weights.

Here are some possible explanations that have been put forth.

1. The lever action allows feeding of very flat-pointed bullets which some feel are more effective penetrators than more "typical-looking" bullets.

2. 45-70 bullets travel at lower velocites and therefore expand/deform less which allows them to penetrate better.

3. Higher velocities may contribute to a "splash" effect at the point of initial penetration which causes a bullet deformation and significant, virtually instantaneous deceleration occurring at the point of penetration. This theorized effect is what causes bullet failure in extreme cases.

 

[cooch]

I'd like to see proper testin with the variables eliminated.

IE, shoot the same bullet out of the same rifle at differing velocities. Verifying velocity by chrograph.

If there is a relationship between velocity and penetration, then is will show up consistently.

Using different projectiles invalidates the comparison, as you're comparing bullets, not cartridges.

Cheers........ Cooch

 

[one-shot-one]

$0.02

if i'm going to spend big$$ to go to africa or kodiak on a hunt, part of my budget would include a .416 rigby or .458 win or insert favorite "classic" african big bore. however if due to circumstances i had to go though the "wild kingdom" armed with only a hopped up .45-70 i would not sweat any more or less than with "classic" african big bore.
now if i had been there done that often maybe i go with the lever gun as a new challenge same as some hunters go to bow hunting.

 

[H&Hhunter]

The tests often show that even at inferior velocities and much lower chamber pressures the 45-70 will out-penetrate the .458 given identical bullet weights.

John,

With all due respect...

All of this so called empircal data was done by none other than the guys who are trying to sell you hyped up expensive .45-70's and the $40.00 a box ammo to go with them.

IF I TAKE AND LOAD A .458 WIN TO IDENTICAL WEIGHTS AND VELOCITIES IT WILL PENETRATE EXACTLEY THE SAME GIVEN THE SAME BULLET AT EVEN LESS PRESSURE THAN THE SHORTER .45-70 case!!!!!!

And if I did it with a .458 Lott it would even be lower pressure!

But I've seen what a .458lott does to a buffalo first hand and there is no substitute for raw horse power placed in the right spot. A .458Lott firing a 500gr bullet at 2300FPS is a devestating round. A .45-70 does not have near the wallop of a true heavy big bore IE a 500gr bullet at 2100fps+..PERIOD.

That being said would i hesitate to use a .45-70 if it's what I had. NO but it's not the end all ropund these .45-70 marketers try to make it out as. It is exactley the same power as an old .450express. Plenty good enough.

These penetration tests have alot more to due with bullet design and material engineering than the fact that it was started from a .45-70.

PS

I own and love a Marlin 1895CB I have notthing against it and recomend it's use as a fantastic hard hitting fast handleing rifle. One of the best.

 

[TaxPhd]

H&Hhunter said that it is exactly the same as a .450 N.E. That is my point. Not that it is better than more modern cartridges, but that it is very sufficient - equivalent to an old classic.



Scott

 

[JohnKSa]

H&H,

Garrett has naturally done a lot of testing in this arena, but his results mirror that of other testers.

I've seen Taffin publish test results that duplicated the results in other calibers. Slower rounds out-penetrating faster ones in the same bullet weights and caliber.

And the first time I saw a test that showed the .45-70 to outpenetrate the .458Mag in a test, it was neither related to Taffin or Garrett. The 45-70 load used was the Remington BP equivalent load. It was simply a tabulated result of penetration testing conducted on several calibers and firearms incidental to the main point of the article which concerned neither the 45-70 nor the .458 directly. The author only commented on the unusual data point in passing.

IF I TAKE AND LOAD A .458 WIN TO IDENTICAL WEIGHTS AND VELOCITIES IT WILL PENETRATE EXACTLEY THE SAME GIVEN THE SAME BULLET AT EVEN LESS PRESSURE THAN THE SHORTER .45-70 case!!!!!!

Sure, that goes without saying. The point isn't that the 45-70 is superior or even equivalent to the .458 Mag or the .458 Lott--it would be ludicrous to claim that.

The point is that for various reasons (some of which are not clearly understood), it's possible to get a lightly loaded 45-70 to punch a hole just as deep as a full power .458 Mag.

 

[H&Hhunter]

This all fine and cool and I love the .45-70.

But 100years of experience have shown us the the best combination of penetration and wallop are from a 500gr or larger bullet of .458 diameter or larger at a starting velocity of between 2100 and 2400 FPS.

The .45-70 should be considered a very marginal round on thick skinned dangerous game.

Wet news paper is one thing an elephants skull is another. And as far as Vince Lupo goes well..A small truth should be introduced at this time. He shot all of his elephant his rhino his buffalo and his lion in a fenced game park in South Africa. Not really the same as wandering into a herd of wild elephants in my opinon. And as far as his claims to being charged by 6 of the 7 danderous animals he hunted. Well in my book that tells volumes about the round he was shooting. Or the shooter.

This is no longer a class war issue, a man can buy a set up .458Lott for the same if not cheaper, decent .45-70. A CZ 550 is a ready to go out of the box .458Lott also available next year in .404Jefferys and .505gibbs. If you are planning a serious hunt in serious country not some game park. Get a real rifle in an adequate caliber. It could save your life.

OK all of the guys who've killed thousands of elephants and buffalo with .223's are welcome to comment now....

I find other serious professional hunters comments about light rifles on dangerous game to enlightening. Taylor on Bell "Extremely fortunate to have lived, only reason is that he hunted in open country not thick jesse"

Arino Sanchez on Bell "One word describes Bell Lucky to be alive".

Guys this stuff can kill you think about it.

TaxPhd,

So the answer to this delema in my opinon is to use a hard cast bullet in your .458Win, gee now there's a true test. Use the same bullet in both rounds..... Better yet forget a hardcast and use a bronze solid with a square nose. The other thing that worries me about the lever gun in a DG application is that little bitty paper thin $.25 extractor.

Once again, it's not how the rifle/caliber performs in a perfect situation but how it performs in a total FUBAR situation.

 

[DigMe]

OK all of the guys who've killed thousands of elephants and buffalo with .223's are welcome to comment now....

Well, I have this friend who knows this guy....

brad cook

 

[BigG]

Karamojo Bell

According to John Taylor, Bell used a ladder contraption in the elephant grass. He would climb to the top with his light rifle and shoot into the tops of the elephants' heads that stuck up above the grass like rocks in a stream. His boys stayed at the foot of the ladder to steady it. Taylor said he also tried this technique but his boys would lose interest after about a half hour as they couldn't see anything leaving the hunter perched at the top of a wobbly ladder. Taylor also noted you would not want to shoot a heavy recoil piece from such a precarious perch. Maybe that was Bell's reasoning also but he was noted to be recoil shy on other occasions.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I know what "Big Five"s, never heard of big six.

I know a Marlin 45/70 can do some jobs with the right bullets, but it still doesn't have the top end power of a .375.

45/70 is just fine for bison and moose, and maybe even brown bear, but there are a lot better rounds for "dangerous" game.

 

[JohnKSa]

I just want to make it clear that I'm not arguing about the suitability of 45-70 for large African game, only pointing out the results of penetration testing.

Bell may have been lucky, but I think his main asset was his amazing skill with a rifle. Lucky or not, if he hadn't been a phenomenal shot he wouldn't have lived long.

 

[TaxPhd]

"Big 6" includes Hippo. Probably should be hunted on dry ground, rather than in the water.


"With all due respect...

All of this so called empircal data was done by none other than the guys who are trying to sell you hyped up expensive .45-70's and the $40.00 a box ammo to go with them."

And I would welcome similar tests from whoever did them. More evidence is preferable to the relatively small body of evidence that we have now.

That the testing is done by those who have something to sell is not by itself a valid reason to reject the results. Further testing is necessary.

"Wet news paper is one thing an elephants skull is another."

Yes, it is quite another (thing). Is there empirical data regarding the performance of modern .45-70 loads against elephant skulls? There is real life data regarding complete penetration on broadside shots, and end-to-end penetration on lengthwise shots on buffalo. And while you try to diminish the validity of the wet newspaper testing, it does provide a controlled situation, that is easily repeatable, for the comparison of penetration. Given the tests that have been done, would you expect the results on broadside buffalo shots to reverse? That is, that the .45-70 would, for some unkown reason, suddenly penetrate less, and the .458 Win Mag, fir the same unknown reason, penetrate more??

"And as far as Vince Lupo goes well..A small truth should be introduced at this time. He shot all of his elephant his rhino his buffalo and his lion in a fenced game park in South Africa. Not really the same as wandering into a herd of wild elephants in my opinon."

Aren't game ranches in South Africa many, many, many thousands of acres? I don't know the size of the rances that Lupo hunted on, But I don't think it is the same as walking out into the back corral and shooting a cow. While there are game fences in place, the sheer size of the ranch would seem to make the existence of a fence a non-issue. Do Rowland-Ward and SCI not recognize trophies from fenced South African game ranches?

"TaxPhd,

So the answer to this delema in my opinon is to use a hard cast bullet in your .458Win, gee now there's a true test. Use the same bullet in both rounds..... Better yet forget a hardcast and use a bronze solid with a square nose. The other thing that worries me about the lever gun in a DG application is that little bitty paper thin $.25 extractor."

The issue (for me, at least) really isn't whether one is better than another, but rather, will the .45-70 perform adequately on dangerous game. The .458Win is used as a convenient benchmark.

I think that your comment about the lever gun extractor is spot on. If that part is prone to failure (and backed up by empirics, not just speculation), that would certainly need to be addressed. It it can't be addressed, then that is sufficient reason to forget about a Guide Gun altogether.

Every time I think that I'll give up big game hunting (too much work) and just hunt birds, I start reading about Africa again, and I start planning how I can get the money. I should never have read Capstick years ago.
:banghead:

H&Hhunter,

I just reread this post prior to hitting the submit button, and while it seems to come across as contentious and antagonistic, that really is not my intent. The good natured give/take that is so easy in a face to face conversation can be very difficult (for me at least) on the internet. The tone that I am trying for really should be that of two buddies sipping some beers around the fire at Elk (or Buffalo) camp, having a spirited (but friendly) discussion about hunting. Sorry if that doesn't seem to be coming through.




Scott

 

[Glamdring]

H&Hhunter said, "But 100years of experience have shown us the the best combination of penetration and wallop are from a 500gr or larger bullet of .458 diameter or larger at a starting velocity of between 2100 and 2400 FPS."

IIRC the 577 NE outperforms higher speed guns, part of that is mass, but it is slower than the smaller "big bores" ~2050fps. The 600 NE is even slower (~1900 IIRC), but hasn't been used as much on game AFAIK.

Higher MV demands tougher bullets. At 45-70 speed hardcast lead bullets will seldom fail on game (talking bullet failure). At 458 speeds even you need something more than just lead (jacket, solid broonze, etc). At 416/7x57 speeds ie 2400 fps you need really good bullets.

IMO matching bullet construction to impact velocity & target (bullet needs to be tough enough or whatever to destroy target) is most important thing. Next is bullet placement. Everything else is just for BS over Beer

 

[H&Hhunter]

"Big 6" includes Hippo. Probably should be hunted on dry ground, rather than in the water.

Tax

Big 5 is rhino, elephant, buffalo, lion and leopard.

Dangerous 7 is all of the above with hippo and croc added on.

.

That is, that the .45-70 would, for some unkown reason, suddenly penetrate less, and the .458 Win Mag, fir the same unknown reason, penetrate more??

No matter which way you turn this the .458Win produces more velocity with a heavier bullet than the .45-70 PERIOD. And if less velocity is the key to penetration than just load your .458 down a bit and make it a lower pressure round.

But here is the crux of all this penetration hoopla and the .45-70. This is a null and void point an example of preocupation with insignifigant and unimportant numbers. The .458 when loaded correctly and not in the failure mode (read caked powder from the early ammo runs) has no problem with penetration.

As far as this magic 1500fps number I've only got one thing to say about that, great I'm happy but...On more than one occasion I've shot a big cape buffalo in the ass and had the bullet go all the way to the head after smashing a hip on the way and that was out of a .458Lott at 2300FPS. A .470NE will do the same thing and I've seen with my own two eyes that a 500gr .475 bullet at 2150 will exit on an elephants skull on a side brain shot. As will a .375H&H or a 416 or a .458 win. A PH aquaintence shot a charging ele in the head and killed it (frontal brain shot) with his .450 Dakota he found the bullet lodged under the skin ..... Next to the base of the elephants tail. I'd call THAT penetration. So it seems to me that the Garrit theory of 1500fps as being the end all penetration velocity and the "faster rounds" having unreliable penetration is not entirely true. Not from my experience anyway. I think most of this has to do with bullet shape and material.

I am not trying to tell what to get or not get as far as a rifle goes. I'm just saying there are far better choices out there for a dangerous game platform and cartridge for about the same money. But everyone who wants to buy a .45-70 wants to believe it's an elephant and buffalo gun. I guess the hype is working. But I've yet to see any true pro's using that rifle as a serious DG back up rifle. Or any serious long time DG hunters for that matter. I'll say it once more the .45-70 should be regarded as a very marginal DGR when speaking in terms of thick skinned animals. I'd rather use a good quality .375H&H with .300gr bullets than a .45-70 anyday on any large animal.

Higher MV demands tougher bullets. At 45-70 speed hardcast lead bullets will seldom fail on game (talking bullet failure).

Glamdrig,

I've seen with my own eyes a .44 mag 330gr Garrit hard cast bullet split in half on a hog shoulder, 1200fps MV.

The .600NE was never very popular because it was intorduced after the true professional ivory hunting period was over. It also has a poor reputation for penetration and the rifles chambered in them are very heavy. The .577 was far more popular as they can be had in a 12-14 pound rifle. And produce all the kill of a .600. But to say it hasn't been used much on game is a gross misrepresentation. There has been plenty of critters killed with the .600NE. It is a hammer.

As Tax said in his post, neither am I trying to be confronatational. Just having a good ole guns and ammo discussion.

Greg

 

[BigG]

I enjoy this spirited back and forth between TaxPhd, H&H, and others and do not take it as confrontational. Pass the beer!

Aside - you two can qualify as fully certified curmudgeons, in my book.

BTW I take the 45/70 lever gun against DG as a stunt; they do it because they CAN not because it's a good idea. Why do men climb mountains, etc?

 

[H&Hhunter]

BTW I take the 45/70 lever gun against DG as a stunt; they do it because they CAN not because it's a good idea. Why do men climb mountains, etc?

Yeah that's my take on it as well..

My wife says I'm getting to be a grumpy old "Bass turd" is that the same as a crumudgeon?

 

[TaxPhd]

BigG,

I am probably more "curmudgeony" now then when I was in Atlanta (at least thats what my wife thinks).

H&Hhunter,

Are there any SCI meetings (or something like it) in Colorado where a novice can go and get more info. on Africa?




Scott

 

[DigMe]

A PH aquaintence shot a charging ele in the head and killed it (frontal brain shot) with his .450 Dakota he found the bullet lodged under the skin ..... Next to the base of the elephants tail. I'd call THAT penetration.

That's incredible!

But I've yet to see any true pro's using that rifle as a serious DG back up rifle. Or any serious long time DG hunters for that matter.

Hey now, I know lots of guys that hunt hogs with the .45-70.

brad cook