.45-70 vs. .458 Win. Mag.

[H&Hhunter]

Are there any SCI meetings (or something like it) in Colorado where a novice can go and get more info. on Africa?

Tax,

I'd be glad to introduce to the denver chapter of the SCI. They meet monthly.

Also considering we only live about 45 minutes from each other I'd be glad to boar you with hours and hours of home videos, stories and numerous wall mounts. There is actually quite a large group of African hunters right here in little ole Elizabeth. Including a couple of serious long time been there done that hunters one of which actually did a 6 month safari. Yes I said 6 months...
On foot across central Africa back in the 40's. A really neat old guy to talk to. Pictures and all. A living piece of old Africana.

Carefull you may get more information than you ever wanted.

If you are interested drop me a PM or an E-mail.

Greg Allyn

Hey now, I know lots of guys that hunt hogs with the .45-70.

Brad,

AHHHH I CAN'T HELP MYSELF NOOOO NOOOOO STOPPP!

And given the oportunity here it comes the capstickish story of the Hawaiian hog also known as Oinky tusky death the ferral killer of the high volacanic islands of the Pacific.

The two hunters stood admiring the view from high atop Mt. Hogalagakillyaeasy. Neither man knew that in less than two minutes one would be dead the other chased up a tree and would nearly die in the following month of captivity while oinky tusky death circled determined to exact his revenge.

OK OK you can finish the story anyway you see fit....

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[TaxPhd]

H&Hhunter,

You've got a PM.



Scott

 

[JShirley]

"So there I was, clad only in thigh boots, kevlar armor, and a football helmet, stalking cautiously through the high grass in search...of pig. Knowing that a 12-gauge shotgun is every bit as powerful as the much-vaunted African Dangerous Game Rifle, I had my trusty Fox SxS, loaded with the ever-effective #6 high-brass. I caught a glimpse of him then, one evil eye alone showing through the wispy brown curtain, and then, he was gone. But not for long.
With a wild cry, the savage beast took me from behind, the impact throwing me high in the air. The big boar must have been puzzled by my disappearance, because he was evidently standing in the same spot when I landed- on his back.
His squeal matched my own as he struggled to throw me, and I struggled desperately to hold my seat as he cavorted and gamboled with ferocious abandon. My eyes frantically searched the ground beneath the evil beast, but my good shotgun was nowhere to be seen. A sudden realization struck with cold intent, and I shouted:

'THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO THE DAIRY QUEEN! '

I snapped awake, upright in bed, drenched with sweat. It was all a dream.

I'm John Kerry, and I approve this message, which is at least as meaningful as usual."

 

[twoblink]

So H&H, what you are saying is, my 45-70 planned purchase might be ok for North American Buffalo, [Buffalo Logistics (tm)] but it's probably not good enough for Elephant logistics??

Hmm.. This is disturbing, as I would like to have just 1 big game rifle... Where be the 416Rigby...

btw.. I love reading the hunting threads, because they are so educational!!

 

[H&Hhunter]

Twoblink,

the .45-70 is definatley a good enough American Bison gun. The .416 is a very nice choice for African dangerous game including elephant.

My advice buy one of each in your personal favorite rifle... That's what I'd do uhmmm, Have done...Will most likely do again.

JS,

Dude stop it I'm having Hog Story Induced Post traumatic Stress Syndrome (H.S.I.P.T.S.S.) Oh my god here they come...

NOOO tusks ripping, blood, oinking.,,and then I wake in a cold sweat, and turn on my "best of the Doors album" and meditate to the gentle hue of my black lava lamp...

 

[twoblink]

H&H, you should change your sig line to "Bacon bacon, who's got the bacon..."

 

[Bigjake]

Knowing that a 12-gauge shotgun is every bit as powerful as the much-vaunted African Dangerous Game Rifle, I had my trusty Fox SxS, loaded with the ever-effective #6 high-brass.

BS. i this story can't be true, if it was, that fox woulda been loaded with the ever feared superdooperallpowerfuldeathray OOO BUCKSHOT load.

 

[JShirley]

(Capstick claimed to have killed a lioness with a load of birdshot...to have worn "armor" while hunting some DG...etc)

 

[Bigjake]

lmao

 

[TaxPhd]

IIRC, PHC's "armor" was used exclusively in following up wounded leopards.




Scott

 

[DT Guy]

I once thought about using a 5.56 on a great big bull elephant, and I thought it would work fine.



Then I thought about shooting a charging rhino with a .22 short, but I didn't think that would work....


So I think a 45-70 should be fine!


Larry

 

[JohnKSa]

Both right...

Capstick's "armor" was exclusively for following wounded leopards into brush. He did carry a shotgun on these occasions, but it was loaded with #1 buck, not birdshot. He was not an advocate of using a shotgun to hunt dangerous game, this technique was only used when he expected to be shooting leopards at very close quarters.

HOWEVER, he did claim to have killed a lioness using 7.5 or 8 shot. He was bird hunting and the lioness which had been crippled by a wire snare charged him. He shot it at essentially contact distance (he called it "halitosis distance") in the head and noted that the result was "like a melon somebody had backed over."

DT Guy,

The 45-70 may not be the equal of the .458Win Mag, but it's certainly a far cry from 5.56 or 22 short. It has been proven adequate (if not the best choice) for anything that walks. Going after elephant with a .223 or a rhino with .22 short is a good recipe for a funeral--going after either one with a 45-70 may make your guide nervous, but if with the proper load and reasonable shooting ability it will definitely do the trick. The Corbon 405gr loading will punch all the way through a large Cape Buffalo breaking both shoulders and still have enough oomph to be fatal to the Buffalo standing behind it--this particular report (published this year in Rifle magazine) said that the bullet also broke both shoulders on the second buff and ended up under the hide on the offside IIRC.

Just because everyone agrees that the 45-70 isn't the equal of the .458Win Mag doesn't mean that we can go the next step and say it's ineffective.

 

[DT Guy]

JohnKSa,

Oh, I'm not doubting it---and my comment should have been clearer.

(I am, in fact, currently in search of a Marlin 1895G Guide Gun in 45-70.)

I guess I was poking fun at the plethora of Great White Hunters who seem to populate the internet...


Larry

 

[JohnKSa]

Well, heck!

I hate it when I over-react! It just burns me up! !@#!^!$#%! !@#$!@#$

I guess I'll NEVER learn!!!!!!

...oops...

 

[Boston T. Party]

I ran across this old thread searching for some load data,
and had a few thoughts.

I've hunted Africa two years in a row with a Marlin .45/70 using
300gr Barnes TSX/2000fps and 350gr Swift A-Frame/1800fps
from a 17" barrel (pre-Guide gun, like they read my mind!).

The best velocity range of penetration is between 2200 and 2400fps.
The .45/70 is far below the .458WM, but will do fine for non-DG.

For example, I swatted an eland bull with the Marlin, with fine results.
I'd trust the 300gr/2000+fps on lion.
But not on African buffalo.

A couple of years ago, a gentleman by the name of Vince Lupo took the African "Big 6" with a Marlin Guide gun, shooting Garrett ammo. He was vilified on a number of boards, including several that specialize in African hunting. Seemed like most of the arguments were along the lines of: "We don't care what Vince did - we hunt Africa, and we know that the .45-70 won't work. The penetration tests are meaningless."

I'd have to agree with the PHs there.
I would not consider the .45/70 even close to adequate for African buffalo.
Just because it's been done doesn't ex post facto make it wise.
For DG, you want some margin of power beyond a mere .45/70 and .458WM

I don't believe that the .45/70 will outpenetrate the .458WM, bullets equal.
Besides, for buffalo you really need 450-500gr bullets, which the .45/70 can't
throw at 2100fps much less 2200-2400fps.

While I'm happy that Rich survived, the ballistic exception does not
disprove the rule. You want .416/400gr/2400fps or .458/500gr/2300fps
for African buffalo.

For our bison, the .45/70 is fine and also historically very cool.
Still, I've not yet blooded my .450 Dakota, so I'll use it with a 400gr A-Frame/2400fps
next month. The Marlin will naturally pout furiously . . .

Boston

Safari Dreams: A Practical Guide To Your Hunt In Africa
by Kenneth W. Royce
ISBN 1-888766-10-7
$30 retail + $6 S&H
5.5"x8.5" softcover perfect bound
352 pages, 100 color photos
published January 2008
www.javelinpress.com

http://www.amazon.com/Safari-Dreams...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200845326&sr=1-3

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st...AMS: A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO YOUR HUNT IN AFRICA

http://www.keenzo.com/showproduct.asp?ID=2156682

 

[Geno]

....

 

[hardluk1]

Dumd old tread then and now.

 

[JohnKSa]

hardluk1,

I looked back over the thread to refresh my memory (it's been 6 years since I last posted on it) to try to find where I:

• Advocated using the .45-70 for elephant
• Said that I was going to use the .45-70 for elephant
• Said that it was a good choice for elephant
• Said that I would be loading .45-70 for elephant
• Said that .45-70 could be safely loaded to 458WinMag levels in a levergun
• Claimed that the .45-70 is equivalent to the .458Win Mag.

I couldn't find where I posted any of those things (which is a good thing since I didn't think I had) so I'm a bit confused as to what post of mine you're referring to.

 

[cottonmouth]

I never hunted the big 5 or anything outside Mississippi but I do own a No.1 Ruger in .458 Winchester. When I first got it I loaded some max load Hot Core 350's for it went out and set the scope and a few weeks later took it deer hunting. I shot a medium sized doe one evening behind the left shoulder and of course it exited on the right side, when I walked up to the deer I noticed the entrence hole, turned her over and saw the exit, but there was a place about 8 to 10 inches on this deers back near the base of her neck that was split/torn open. Only the skin was split and there was no damage to the meat there and no blood. It looked like it was cut with a razor, never seen anything like it since, my 45-70 never did this. Poor deer, after seeing this and another deer I shot in the neck I backed it down a good bit!

J.B.

 

[H&Hhunter]

GUYS!!!!

This thread is almost 6, SIX, SIX YEARS old. If I was a moderator I'd shut it down RIGHT NOW! But I'm not so instead I'll just say that it should be left to R.I.P. Let it go and don't expect guys to answer from posts they made SIX years ago! Heck many of the guys who posted on this thread aren't even on the site anymore!

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

H&H is right. Start a new thread instead of resurrecting an ancient one.