45 70 vs full grown bull

[BigBore44]

Hydrostatic shot as I have always believed, simply overloads (shocks) the animals organs as it shoves them around violently. Similar to taking a vicious body blow by a kick or punch. This causes vessels to break and tissue to separate. Sometimes it happens "just right" throws the CNS into instant shock. This can cause an animal to fall where it stood without breaking the spine. I have seen this happen many times during MMA and boxing. One opponent literally drops the other with a punch or kick to the stomach or chest. Not dropped like "Ouch! I give up" but dropped as in "has to be revived". People have even died from kicks and punches to the chest. It's rare. But it has happened. The "shock" throws the heart into ventricular fibrillation or V-Fib and without resetting it, the heart can stop.

However, sometimes it's not "just right" and the animal runs a little ways before expiring.

 

[KC45]

I use Marlin Guide Gun loaded with 375gr WFN cast bullet and enough 3031 to get it to 1,450 fps... a warm load but not hot. That rifle/load will completely penetrate large hog from any angle. I bet if I used 450 gr cast bullet loaded to about 1,500 fps it will penetrate a bull from bow to stern... or atleast come close to it.

 

[d2wing]

Big Bore your post count is stuck at 666. Intentional? Is that a vote for antichrist? Just wondering.

 

[horsemen61]

Hey D lets not derail the thread at hand

 

[BigBore44]

d2wing,
Thanks for the heads up!!! Been mighty sick last few days. Much better now.

And on topic.... Umm..... 45-70 has great penetration with proper bullet and powder charge.

 

[d2wing]

I am relieved, Big bore. After looking into this topic some more I found that slow bullets in any caliber often have better penetration than the same bullet at a higher velocity. The reason is that as speed increase over 1000 fps flesh is unable to compress or be separated as fast as the bullet moves. As speed increases this causes more drag, and damage to expand out from the point of contact and destroy more flesh which used up more energy. Therefor a slower bullet moves through flesh easier and further with much less damage to surrounding flesh. The energy is applied to movement rather than damaging surrounding tissue. Bullets over 2500 fps ad a much higher level of damage as this is the speed cavitation starts to happen.
So odds are better of any heavy bullet to go further through a large body of flesh at certain speeds than others. That speed is not linear so you can't say a bullet at a certain speed will go further since there are several factors especially bullet construction, and type of flesh. There is likely an optimum speed range for each bullet for penetration in flesh. The 45/70 is very good at penetration with minimum tissue damage. Good for meat hunting at close range or making a heart shot from the wrong end. I guess the answer is maybe, depends and who cares.

 

[PowerG]

With the right round, I have no doubt it would do it.

 

[steveo452]

I shot a 150lb. 6pt. buck this year with my 45-70 govt. Handi rifle using hornady 325gr. FTX bullet. M.V. was 1850 fps out of my rifle. I hit him in the brisket head on at 25 yards, the bullet stopped 2" short of exiting the hind quarter. I did recover the bullet It had expanded to about .625". I reload my own hard cast bullets for my 45-70. I'm sure they would have exited the buck. As for a big bull I don't know. I think It might.

 

[Fast Frank]

I don't know about the bull...

But this one morning, just after sunrise, I was sitting in a stand on the ground and waiting for a huge buck to stroll out in front of me.

I had my Marlin 336 in .30-30 with me.

So I'm sitting there, being very very quiet (Elmer Fudd taught me that) and trying to not move at all.

And then this squirrel jumps from tree to tree right in front of me.

And then he runs across a branch right above my head.

I guess the little bugger noticed me sitting there, because he ran to a tree just to my right and sat there on a branch barking at me.

The little guy is raising a serious ruckus, but I was hoping the deer would consider it normal noise for the area and come on out.

Well, that didn't happen.

So, I sat there, still being very very quiet while the squirrel cursed me up one side and down the other, said some really rude things about my momma, and told everybody within about a three hundred yard radius that there was something going on over where I was sitting.

I tried to wait him out.

I figured his little pea sized brain would move on to other things pretty quickly and then maybe I would see some venison.

Nope. He kept it up for a solid 20 minutes.

By then, it was getting warm out and I knew the deer had bedded down for the day.

I looked up at that squirrel, and saw that he was on a branch, looking down at me with a nice fat tree trunk directly behind him.

Well, Having nothing to lose at that point, I decided it was time for the squirrel to shut up.

I sent a 150 grain Winchester soft point traveling at about 2400 feet a second up there and it hit the squirrel square in the neck, passed through the whole squirrel, and came out his... well, it came out the back.

It pretty much turned the little guy inside out, and sent his innards flying in every direction. He went spinning off the other side of the tree like a frizbee and landed on the ground.

It got REAL QUIET right after that.

So, Like I said... I don't know about the bull but I'm pretty sure a .30-30 will go through a squirrel.

 

[kvtcomdo]

Absolutely possible with a full house 45-70 load in hard cast.

DEEEEEEP penetration.

 

[jeepnik]

Does it really matter? If the 45-70 won't kill the bull, you have much more serious problems on your hands.

 

[Swampman]

I'd say it has more to do with exactly WHICH full grown bull you're trying to ventilate...

 

[scaatylobo]

Seems to me that I do recall the 45-70 was used to kill a "few" buffalo back a few decades or so.

And they were black powder loads besides.

So its not debatable in my mind that it can take ANY critter on the North American continent.

Just don't try a 300 yard shot s'all .