Is .45-70 That Powerful?

[X-Rap]

For the small percentage of hunters who will ever get to hunt elephant this info might matter but even that group is diminished by those who would choose a 45-70.
For the rest of us or at least for me I am comfortable with the knowledge that my little carbine will take down large elk with as much ease as any other caliber in my arsenal and is light and compact enough that I would not hesitate to trust it and the right ammo against the Western Hemispheres largest animals.

 

[McCall911]

Wet newspaper, as was mentioned, has been used an a ballistics test medium for many years. I don't believe Garrett was trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes, it's simply whats available and generally accepted, tho I still do not believe it is an accurate predictor of what bullets do in animals, especially heavy African animals. Hands on experience trumps the theoretical testing every time, particularly when that hands on experience is over long periods of time and a large number of animals.

No argument from me on that, Malamute. And I'm a fan of ballistics testing. What bugs me about Randy Garrett's article is his apparent insinuation that the .45-70 might be more effective than the more powerful .458-caliber rifle rounds. An inexperienced person might overestimate the effectiveness of his cartridge from reading this. Against elephant, it would be very possible that the misinformed hunter would end up as "tembo toejam." This also happened in the early part of the 20th century with the use of high sectional density smallbore cartridges against elephant by inexperienced hunters.

One thing I think ballistic testing is about is the performance of the bullet in the medium. Will it expand? Will it travel straight or veer? Will it hold together along the way? But the main thing, to my mind, that stands in favor of wetpack testing is that some avid hunters use it to evaluate the performance of their bullets. This doesn't have to be good enough for anybody else, but so far it's been good enough for me.

Two things are important when you're trying to analyze terminal ballistics. The strength (e.g. tensile strength, compressive strength, etc.) and the density. And not just the strength and density of the target, but of the bullet itself. (An important fact which is often overlooked because there is the potential for deformation of the bullet due to the resisting force of the target.) These facts might make it appear that we are dealing with a non-Newtonian substance, when this might not be the case at all. The expanding bullet is naturally decelerating because of its increasing surface area, rather than due to some exotic nature of our test medium.
At least, this is the way I see it.

 

[bobbo]

The .45-70 is NOT knocking on the door of a .458 WM. It comes close to the same velocity in the very most hostile loads possible with a 400 Gr bullet that the .458 is getting with a 500 gr bullet. Can anybody see the difference here?

My reloading manual puts top-load .45-70, in a modern gun design (Ruger No. 1 and the like) at 100-200 fps slower than a .458 Win Mag with the same weight bullet. That's like saying a hot .222 Remington can't do what a factory .223 Remington can.

Prolly wouldn't use it on an elephant (mostly because an elephant's never done anything to me before), but for anything on this continent, I don't see why not. Especially in a quick-reloading lever action.

 

[X-Rap]

An inexperienced person might overestimate the effectiveness of his cartridge from reading this. Against elephant, it would be very possible that the misinformed hunter would end up as "tembo toejam."

Just how many elephant hunters are there who reaching that status and level of wealth would be so much misinformed by an ammo advertisement that he would fall prey to the beast?
Now if such a discrepancy while elk hunting or even big bear could cost the misinformed hunters life you might have a point.
From buffalo on down I agree with what bobbo says, a couple hundred ftps at ranges under 100yds is probably not going to be noticed at the recieving end. That doesn't mean I don't understand that the comparison is apple to apples it just means that given the right gun and bullet the 45-70 will do the job.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Prolly wouldn't use it on an elephant (mostly because an elephant's never done anything to me before), but for anything on this continent, I don't see why not. Especially in a quick-reloading lever action.

Exactly.

It is a very powerful round that will in fact cleanly and efficiently take anything the Americas has to offer. AND you are correct in regards to what you can do with a Ruger #1 strength action. I was referring to loads available for a lever gun as that is what the Garret stuff is geared towards.

As far a elephants and never having done anything to you. Congratulations on a safe and secure existence away from the presence of wild elephants. If you'd have spent anytime in thick bush in wild elephant country you'd probably have a bit of a different opinion on the matter. I've spent breathless moments running from and nearly having to shoot elephants at snot slinging range on several occasions. Once that happens to you, your opinion on the "best" elephant rifle and cartridge tends to morph to more not less in regards to power, caliber and bullet weight.

I HIGHLY recommend that everyone here with any interest in educating yourselves on Elephant behavior, hunting and defense buy Buzz Charleton's DVD on Elephants and elephant hunting.

He has a one of the most informative chapters I've ever seen on caliber and rifle selection for elephant hunting and defense. There are a couple of clips in there that graphically demonstrate the difference between just enough gun and a truly adequate elephant rifle. One of the most graphically poignant clips is one of a big bull on a frontal brain shot with a .470 NE the shot looks perfect but it's about an inch off the bull turns and runs like nothing happened to it vs one being shot also on a frontal with a .500 NE that hits substantially off the sweet spot yet drops the bull DEAD instantly which experienced elephant hunters all comment on. A .470 NE is a marginal elephant stopper on big bulls. A reliable big bull stopper starts with the .500 NE firing a 570 gr solid At 2100 or so FPS. Many experienced elephant PH have gone to .500's and larger based on experience when trying to stop a big bull at close range.

Please review THE .470 NE is a MARGINAL elephant stopper, where does that leave the .45-70?

Here is a link to the site

http://www.cmsafaris.com/

The DVD is called "Hunting the African Elephant"

 

[KodiakBeer]

I think X-Rap pretty much nails it.

Garrett rounds can penetrate further in at least some media, but I think we all know that penetration isn't everything. The very fact that a round nosed .458 slug might yaw more within a large torso (and thence not quite penetrate as far), isn't necessarily a bad thing. That yaw is also disrupting more tissue as it travels.

When all is said and done, it's obvious that a modern .45-70 load is "enough" for elephants and other large game. That fact is patently obvious when we compare those loads to the old black powder loads with similar diameter and weights (in much lower velocities) that killed tens of thousands of large African species.

Is the .45-70 the best choice? No, certainly not. In the hands of a competent shooter, is it enough? Yes, it certainly is.

 

[TexAg]

How did this thread drift to elephant killing? The OP was referring to cape buffalo.

 

[McCall911]

[Just how many elephant hunters are there who reaching that status and level of wealth would be so much misinformed by an ammo advertisement that he would fall prey to the beast?

This:

This also happened in the early part of the 20th century with the use of high sectional density smallbore cartridges against elephant by inexperienced hunters.

Ah, so there's no sympathy for "rich" white guys turned into khaki-colored pancakes by elephants!

Not just ammo advertisements. Articles and word-of-mouth figure in there somewhere.
Back then, it happened in the case of some of the 6.5mm cartridges (6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer, 6.5x53 Dutch with 160 grain bullets.) Some dreamers decided that William 'Karamojo' Bell was onto something and armed themselves with 7x57 Mausers. Some of these unfortunate hunters died. The .280 Ross may have been another overestimated round, in addition to the penetration champ .333 Jeffery with a 300 grain bullet.
Sure, shot placement may be "king", but sometimes using a particular cartridge is just ill-advised.
But I agree that the .45-70 is a wonderful cartridge and is suitable for anything here in our part of the world.

 

[McCall911]

How did this thread drift to elephant killing? The OP was referring to cape buffalo.

My fault. And I also hijacked the thread. I'm sorry.

 

[CSA 357]

i havent seen any elephant or cape buffalo here in alabama so the 4570 is fine with me

 

[Panzercat]

.45-70 is gains extra power from fanboy dreams. The same way .45acp does. It's similar to unicorn horns and pixie dust.

I thought they were loaded with unicorn horn powder and pixie dust
Either way, I lol'd

 

[Fullboar1]

My head hurts.
Anyway I dont know if its been posted before but here is and article about using the 45-70 and Dangerous Game in Africa.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=89&tocid=1273

 

[suzukisam]

this thread started out cool! but now I just feel like newtons retarded brother!:banghead: 45-70 is a cannon. I have found nothing that can take one and keep running. don't know anything about the 458 win, so I'll leave that alone!

 

[H&Hhunter]

I have found nothing that can take one and keep running. don't know anything about the 458 win, so I'll leave that alone!

I have. You're just hunting the right stuff.

 

[Panzercat]

My head hurts.
Anyway I dont know if its been posted before but here is and article about using the 45-70 and Dangerous Game in Africa.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...=89&tocid=1273

Or to summarize: Yes a 45-70 is fine too, but err on the side of physics when hunting dangerous prey, not against it.

 

[Jim Watson]

John Taylor was down on the .470 not because of a lack of power vs .450 or .465 but because its standard bullet nose was tapered before rounding off, not a hemisphere like others. He did not think it penetrated as straight as the competition.

The .280 Ross was a velocity king, its light bullets lacking the sectional density of the usual 6.5 and 7mm.

 

[db_tanker]

i havent seen any elephant or cape buffalo here in alabama so the 4570 is fine with me

maybe...but by GOD there are some hogs in Texas that come close to them critters!

I dunno...seems like when the time comes and I win the lottery I have my buttocks covered with my 416 Taylor AND 45-70.

 

[hardluk1]

Enought on the 45/70 and 458 winny lets all run out and buy a 375 or 416 caliber and have more choices in rifles and factory ammo and probably carried more african guides then all other.

 

[Justin]

When the guy who's killed more elephants than everyone else on this forum put together says that the .45-70 isn't an adequate cartridge for elephant, perhaps we ought to listen.