45 70 vs full grown bull

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by horsemen61, Feb 11, 2014.

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  1. horsemen61

    horsemen61 Member

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    Alright guys a friend of mine swears that with his marlin 1895 guide gun in 45 70 he can shoot threw a full grown bull from brisket all the way threw the rear end so I gotta ask do y'all think it is possible
     
  2. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Bull !.
     
  3. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Depends on a lot of things but I would bet it has already been done at least once in the last 141 years.

    Could have even been done on one of these.

    Bison_skull_pile_ca1870.jpg
     
  4. OptimusPrime

    OptimusPrime Member

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    Maybe if the bull's mouth is wide open and he's lifting his tail up out of the way......
     
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    With the right hard cast flat-point bullet, loaded to +p pressure?

    Yes, maybe.

    A noted writer for Rifle / Handloader magazine killed two water buffalo bulls with a 45-70 by accident a few years ago.

    He failed to notice a second bull standing behind the first one when he shot it.
    And the 45-70 shot through them both and kept on going.

    It won't ever do it with a standard pressure load, or a jacketed expanding bullet though.

    Rc
     
  6. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    Yes, I think it is possible.
     
  7. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    Yes it's possible and it wouldn't even have to be a hard bullet going fast. Lots of recent reports of complete penetration from end to end or side to side on all manner of beasts with a 45-70.
     
  8. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    It's long been my opinion that much of the energy in typical hunting bullets is used to to deform/mushroom the bullet. That is energy not used for penetration.

    Along with that, once it mushrooms there is obviously more frontal area. Also, usually when a bullet deforms, it flips around tail first. Think of the expanded nose as a parachute or fletching on an arrow.

    Use a hard cast non-expanding and it's a different game. IIRC, Paco at Sixgunner.com killed a cape buffalo with a .45LC (loaded WAY up) and hard cast. I believe he got thru and thru penetration. During tests I believe he got four feet of penetration in wet newsprint.
     
  9. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but probably close with the right bullets and load. But so would a lot of other chamberings. There is nothing magical about the 45-70. It is about bullet choices. With proper bullets a 270, 30-06 or most any common chambering will penetrate 5-6 feet through animals. Moving up to the 375 magnum and larger rounds, they will do far better.

    Highly doubtful. Despite the legend very few bison were killed with the 45-70. For one thing the original blackpowder loading was underpowered for bison and hunters of the day would only use a 45-70 if they had nothing else. Those loads certainly wouldn't have given this type of penetration.

    But the main reason is because the bison herds were pretty much wiped out 10-20 years before the 45-70 was even introduced in 1873. By 1874 laws had been enacted banning bison hunting to preserve the handful that were left. I'm sure a few bison have fallen to the 45-70, but no where near the numbers it is given credit for.

    When smokeless powder came on the scene in the 1890's the 45-70 died a quick death after only about 20 years. The round lay dead or dormant for nearly 100 years and was brought back to life in 1973 by Marlin and has only recently caught on. While the round was introduced 141 years ago, it has almost no history except that made up by Marlin advertising.
     
  10. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    Lot's of 45-70s were used in the 20 and 30s to put food on the table, when other firearms were not available or cost money. It's not like the 45-70 disappeared.
     
  11. 22plinker

    22plinker Member

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    Be prepared for lots of bull buger

    The 45/70 throwing a hard cast lead bullet is tough to stop. There are many instances of end to end penetration in large animals.
    All your buddy is saying is that the 45/70 is a hard charging round. He is right. If you want to get picky with the details and prove him wrong ,buy a bull and shoot it .:)
     
  12. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    bullets

    Depends on the bullet, as has been said. With a modern high pressure load, and a solid bullet.....sure.
    Pete
     
  13. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Make sure to post the video.
     
  14. j1

    j1 Member

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    I think that's a lot of bull.
     
  15. Shanghai McCoy

    Shanghai McCoy Member

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    Send the question to Mythbusters.
    Maybe we'll get to see Kari shooting a buffalo rifle in a future episode...? ;)
     
  16. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    i shot a herford bull years ago with a 385gr hard cast handload with a heavy load of of imr 3031,the bull was a free range bull and could not be caught to butcher. the shot was at about 70yds with the bull facing me with his head level with his body, i aimed for between his eyes and at shot and he went down so quick i didn,t see it in the scope. the bullet went thru his head and thru his neck and was found just under his spine above his lungs,pretty well mangled. i think a very hard cast or full metal jacketed bullet at the right speed could do it.after going thru the brisket no bones would be hit untill the bullet got to the hind quarters and then may miss bone. eastbank.
     
  17. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    i found a old picture of the bull shot with the marlin 1895. eastbank.
     

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  18. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Why would anyone care?
     
  19. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    a wild guess,not you. eastbank.
     
  20. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    I don't think that is quite right. After 1876 the 45-70 was the standard chambering in the Sharps sporting rifles, and a quite popular one at that. Up until that time the 44-77, more commonly marked on the barrel as 44 2 1/4 was the most popular chambering in the Sharps rifles and was the cartridge most used on the buffalo plains.
    Both cartridges were loaded identically, using 75 grs of powder with a 1.1 inch paper patched bullet (410 grs +-). Along with a 70 gr charge with again a 1.1 inch cannelured bullet.
    At any rate there are letters to the Sharps company from buffalo hunters claiming one shot killing two bull buffalo at 500 yds..
     
  21. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    My comment was for the original question. It is an exercise in futility like the 30-06 vs 308 commentaries that seem to endlessly pop up on this site. I can't imagine why the original question would be relevant information for any useful reason, except for the BS jobs that go with beer consumption at the end of the day. But, if it entertains and draws people to the conversation, by all means continue on. I certainly do not have the power to stop such high mindedness.
     
  22. coon trapper 66

    coon trapper 66 Member

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    The 45-70 has plenty of ft-lbs. to do it if it takes the path of least resistance. however through the brisket through the vitals then the nasty's and through a hind quarter and out the hide...... pretty impressive worth talking about if it took that path. traveling slow enough so as the bullet doesn't fragment and it retains most of it's weight hhhmmmm..... heck anything is possible
     
  23. hq

    hq Member

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    Wasn't there another thread about .45-70 and penetration in hunting section about a year or two ago? My personal experiments have shown penetration well in excess of 6' (I rapidly ran out of gelatin) with hot(ish) 500gr solid loads and the only question mark is slight lack of velocity compared to .458WM and .460Wby, which translates to smaller hydrodynamic shock.

    All in all, with proper bullets .45-70 is a massive penetrator.
     
  24. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    Well I know for a fact that a 405 gr. hard cast bullet at 1200 +\- fps will punch completely through a adult bison standing broadside at 165 measured yards cause I did it.

    Hotter load, close range & right angle probably pretty darn good chance.
     
  25. rule303

    rule303 Member

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