45-70 with Handgun Powders

[WrongHanded]

Okay, I have some 405gr coated lead SNS bullets, and some Berry's 350gr plated bullets.

The only rifle powder I currently have will push these bullets too fast for their own good, or give me bad accuracy. That would be H322. I've got other bullets for this powder though.

So I know some people use 2400 or Unique for low velocity 45-70 loads. Both of which I have pounds of. Data is available but scarce.

What I'm wondering is, does anyone have any loads with these powders and bullets that they'd care to share? Can I use WLR primers, or do I need Large Pistol primers? Do I need a wad to hold the powder towards the head of the case? And if so, do I need to buy specific material or can I use tissue or toilet paper, or some such material?

 

[Charlie98]

The classic Unique load is 15grn under a 405grn bullet. Unique doesn't normally suffer from position issues, but I have personally witnessed a case head blowout with that load. I actually have some loaded up right now... but what I do is 'muzzle up' after I chamber them, to set the powder against the primer, and they have been fine. I would not use it in a lever-action without single loading them the same way (which I did when I had my Marlin 1895.) You can also use a tiny tuft of Dacron, and I have heard others use Cream of Wheat on top of the charge to keep it in place. I would use the Dacron route, personally. My 32" Pedersoli 1885 launches that combo at 1220fps.

I have some test loads with 2400 loaded up right now, based on the suggestion from the guy I bought the Pedersoli from... it's his favorite for that rifle, so I thought I would give it a try. I have 19grn and 20grn 2400 under a 385grn cast powder-coated bullet, expected velocity is in the 1350fps range. 20grn 2400 gives about 50% case fill with a 405grn bullet, so no real need for filler, I believe.

I would use standard RIFLE primers no matter what.

 

[Charlie98]

I should add that my favorite .45-70 powder is IMR4198, although AA5744 is a close substitute. I have also used IMR4227, very similar to 2400 in burn rate. I've come full circle on IMR4198... I use it in almost every rifle cartridge I load cast for, now.

 

[klausman]

Yes, data is a bit hard to find, but these loads do work, and produce low velocities with little recoil and are very quiet.
Have a look at the following 3 items. Interesting stuff.
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane3.html

More interesting information can be had at http://gmdr.com. (Oregon Trail Cowboy)

Always be sure that the barrel is clear after each shot. <> Important <>
From a historical standpoint, Unique was first sold as a reduced load rifle powder back in 1900.

 

[Charlie98]

Just FYI, I have QL data for the 15/405 load, if you want to geek out on it. It will be for my rifle, but certainly it would be close.

 

[WrongHanded]

Just FYI, I have QL data for the 15/405 load, if you want to geek out on it. It will be for my rifle, but certainly it would be close.

Thanks Charlie, QL is something I really should have already but I keep justifying load workups without it thinking "it's just this one load". How many times I've said that to myself I don't know. But I've been pretty conservative and stopped when I got the accuracy I wanted, and relatively consistent chrono data. Still, I should buy it.

Someone was kind enough to PM me with some book data for both Unique and 2400. I think I'll try the 2400 data first as it's a little more case filling and I've had more experience with it than any other powder.

I'm honestly not sure I even want a staple load from this, just to make the most of the bullets I already have. After that, I think I'll stick with the heavy hitters, and use moderation and the limbsaver recoil pad (which works wonders btw).

 

[Charlie98]

I think I'll try the 2400 data first as it's a little more case filling

I wasn't going to say anything... but that would be my choice. After witnessing that casehead blow out, I'm going to work through the few rounds I have loaded, and abandon Unique in the .45-70. My 2400 loads may work, we will see, but they will have to produce super gold plated double deluxe results for me to drop IMR4198 in favor of it...

For that matter, I have 2400/405 data, QL data, too...

 

[WrongHanded]

For that matter, I have 2400/405 data, QL data, too...

As there are apparently a few of us working on 2400/405 loads, if you'd like to share that, I think we'd all appreciate it. I know I would.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

12 grains of Unique behind 405gr cast bullets makes a fun pinking load.
I have used 2400 with good results but I don't recall the load.

 

[Starter52]

24.0 grains of 2400 powder and a 350 grain bullet. My .45-70 range load for decades.

After one bad experience I now always use Dacron to hold the charge in place.

 

[edwardware]

After one bad experience I now always use Dacron to hold the charge in place.

Please explain. I've played similar games (with Dacron) in .375H&H, and never could tell the difference.

 

[Charlie98]

I'm not real PC savvy... let's see if it works...

 

[mrawesome22-250]

 

[Starter52]

edwardware, my bad experience with .45-70 load without Dacron:

The round went pfloof instead of bang.

The bullet cleared the barrel, fortunately.

 

[Obturation]

edwardware, my bad experience with .45-70 load without Dacron:

The round went pfloof instead of bang.

The bullet cleared the barrel, fortunately.

You figure because it was position sensitive ?
I'm in on this 2400 experiment too, I thought about a cardboard wad to hold it down, thoughts?

 

[coonbait]

I know you are looking for loads with 2400, but if you can try some Trail Boss fills the case up and is a pleasure to shoot

 

[GaryL]

edwardware, my bad experience with .45-70 load without Dacron:

The round went pfloof instead of bang.

The bullet cleared the barrel, fortunately.

That reminds me of a time at the range....

A friend brought along his 44mag carbine, and some loads he was "playing with". It was 6-10 rounds, no more than that. They went off about as you described. The bullets hit the ground about 10 yds out, and ran like quick little bowling balls into the backstop. That's the only way to describe them. They hit anything in front of the backstop pretty hard - they were probably 300gr. It made us laugh in the same way tannerite makes grown men laugh like little kids.

He never said what they were exactly, at least not that I recall. But after a while I kind of puzzled it out. He used to buy a lot of surplus powders and try to figure out how many ways to use them. So he probably got into a powder that was a bit too slow for 44mag, but it was surplus, and didn't know for sure, and loaded up a few to try out. He was a long time reloader at that point, and was well versed in the art.

 

[WrongHanded]

You figure because it was position sensitive ?
I'm in on this 2400 experiment too, I thought about a cardboard wad to hold it down, thoughts?

I ended up buying some black powder wads from Midway. They're not very thick but they're 0.6something inches in diameter. Someone reviewed them as being good for 45-70. I think it was 1000 for $20. I'll report back on the fit once I get going.

 

[Jim Watson]

You figure because it was position sensitive ?
I'm in on this 2400 experiment too, I thought about a cardboard wad to hold it down, thoughts?

I wouldn't.
A hard wad over a dense powder can ring the chamber.
Kirk Bryan showed one with multiple little rings until it got bad enough to prevent extraction.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

From my research, pushing a wad down onto a smaller powder charge can be catastrophic.

The wad becomes the primary projectile, then it slams into the bullet. Think barrel obstruction type situation. Very bad.

The only reliable type of filler I believe was Dacron (pufflon?) because it gets burned up with the powder and therefore doesn't become a projectile inside the case.

I'd recommend doing lots of reading up on fillers and proceed with extreme caution.

 

[WrongHanded]

From my research, pushing a wad down onto a smaller powder charge can be catastrophic.

The wad becomes the primary projectile, then it slams into the bullet. Think barrel obstruction type situation. Very bad.

The only reliable type of filler I believe was Dacron (pufflon?) because it gets burned up with the powder and therefore doesn't become a projectile inside the case.

I'd recommend doing lots of reading up on fillers and proceed with extreme caution.

I just started looking into that. Seems there are some ideas about not pushing the wad all the way down onto the powder and instead leaving a (smaller) airspace over the powder. But I suppose the wad would still be a projectile, even if they are only 1/16" thick.

Guess I should source some dacron.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I think you get it at fabric stores. If I recall correctly, it's basically pillow stuffing.

I never fooled with it. Shot thousands of 13gr Unique without any filler and they've all gone bang.

 

[Charlie98]

I would go the Dacron route... as was mentioned, hobby stores, big box retailers, etc. My dog provides me with plenty of Dacron out of the dog toys he destroys...

I would NOT use any rigid wad, although some use them.

 

[Jim Watson]

The best case filler I know of is FFg, but I know that is a little complicated to deal with.

 

[Obturation]

I wouldn't.
A hard wad over a dense powder can ring the chamber.
Kirk Bryan showed one with multiple little rings until it got bad enough to prevent extraction.

The wad becomes the primary projectile, then it slams into the bullet. Think barrel obstruction type situation. Very bad.

Thanks, hadn't considered that. If I don't have real load data, I don't proceed . so I appreciate the insight and it makes sense.