.45 caliber

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

45 is great and all...

But basing your opinion of that round off of the military tests is VERY silly IMO. With the FMJ ammunition the military uses, even the mighty 45 does precious little actual tissue damage. Often, the permanent hole isn't even .45".

 

[SaxonPig]

I have only been in one gunfight but it involved me putting 4 rounds of 45 ACP into a man's torso with no immediate visible effect. I was underwhelmed by the legendary stopping power and instant lethality of the mighty 45 ACP.

I used to buy the hype surrounding the 45 ACP. This incident opened my eyes to the truth. No pistol is particularly powerful and nothing is a sure bet to stop a man.

BTW- My current carry pieces are a 659 S&W with +P+ 115 JHPs and a 2.5" M19-3 with 125 JHPs @ 1525 FPS.

 

[Japle]

Posted by crossrhodes:
JAPLE, If they were the cats meow why did we go to the 40 cal and legacy Customs dropped there 9mm and went to 40 too. I'm not saying the 9mm is bad.

Who's "we"?

Who's "legacy Customs"?

Cats? What cats? Where?

 

[Browns Fan]

I have an XD45 tactical for HD, and I have a glock 30 on layaway that will be in my carry rotation once it proves to be reliable. I do trust the 9mm as it is my primary carry choice at the moment in either a glock 19 or PF9.

 

[PT92]

Agreed if one is considering FMJ only which is required by the Geneva Convention of which the U.S. Military subscribes. However, if you look at the technological advancement in 9mm ammo, the equation is different. I love the .45 but would not hesitate to trust today's 9mm special loads.

-Cheers

 

[Ankeny]

Most of my pistol shooting is on steel gong targets. Bigger bullets move those gongs more than lighter bullets. The faster you push those bigger bullets, the more movement you get.

I know what you mean. I do a lot of shooting on 3/8 thick full size IPSC targets. When I shoot my G19 with "self defense" hollow points the rounds go ker-tink, ker-tink, ker-plink and barely wiggle the target and stand. On the flip side, when I shoot my 1911 with 230 grain "self defense" hollow points the round go ker-wham, ker-blam, ker-whop. After half a dozen of those at speed the target, stand, have been known to tip over backwards and crash to the ground. Alas, all of that added wallop of the .45 is for naught in a gunfight. Kind of hard for some of us to get our head wrapped around the idea that bigger isn't better, in fact it is worse due to increased recoil and reduced capacity.

 

[45_auto]

Alas, all of that added wallop of the .45 is for naught in a gunfight.

Is there somewhere on the internet you go to look up how much "wallop" you're going to need in your gunfight? Maybe it'll show you when it's scheduled also!

I haven't been in any civilian gunfights, but in all the military ones the side with the most "wallop" won.

Are civilian bad guys easier to stop than military ones?

 

[Ankeny]

Is there somewhere on the internet you go to look up how much "wallop" you're going to need in your gunfight?

Yup, right here on THR. FWIW, I carry a .45 just in case there is a BG in my future who didn't get the memo.

 

[mortablunt]

For a handgun round, the 45 ACP is great and special. However, handgun bullets are completely outclassed very quickly when compared up against shotgun and rifle loads. About 80% of people shot with handguns survive. Granted, people have survived just about everything; there were even people who survived being nuked and Phineas Gage had an iron bar launched straight through his skull, which didn't kill him.

I believe that all handgun bullets are lethal when used properly and hit the right things. So long as the correct regions of the brain aren't hit, the right blood vessels severed, or certain vital organs substantially disrupted, a person will most likely survive. A hit with a 50BMG to the foot won't kill somebody, but a 22lr to the heart surely would. We have weapons for defense because they have lethality. Of course, lethal doesn't exactly translate into instantaneous stop. Many people who were shot in the past by small caliber handguns died hours or days later from complications and infections. Modern medicine makes it so that it takes a special hit with a handgun to kill somebody. As another member has said: 'there are calibers I stand behind, but there is no caliber I would stand in front of'.

 

[PT92]

I know we have all heard it many times and that it sounds like an old cliche but it indeed rings true:

'a handgun is something you use while trying to get to a real gun.'

Problem is we can't CCW a long-gun so we use what we can--That being said and as others have mentioned, the best we can do is proper shot placement and hope for the best.

-Cheers

 

[shootingthebreeze]

tallinar, you didn't fix anything actually you changed a published quoted comment which should read "...not less than a 0.45." as copied from American Rifleman Page 64.
If you don't like the quote than state it in your own words but don't insert your quote into a published sentence. As a published novelist that bothers me a lot.
It would be the same if you decided to add a sentence in a published chapter-just because you wanted to. I quoted the paragraph faithfully-leave it alone.

 

[crossrhodes]

Who's "we"?

Who's "legacy Customs"?

Cats? What cats

You tell me. If you state what an Agency is using, I would think you know the answers to the question.

 

[NWCP]

I carry the new HK45C and am perfectly comfortable with it being an 8+1 when loaded with a decent heavy hollow point. I do like my 40 and 9, but the .45 still rules the roost. In all honesty the gun that won the west was the venerable shotgun. Most any farmer, rancher, shop owner, or lawman owned one and wasn't afraid to use it. It was perhaps the most common firearm in the west and great plains. If I could carry anything legally today it would be either a rifle, or shotgun, but laws being what they are my handgun will suffice.

 

[InkEd]

Secretariat, Man O War, Seabiscuit and 9mm45acp are all dead horses. Can we please stop beating them now?

 

[Rail Driver]

Secretariat, Man O War, Seabiscuit and 9mm45acp are all dead horses. Can we please stop beating them now?

I get more tired of seeing comments like this, than I do seeing the same question asked and answered over and over.

Personally, I carry a .45ACP because I like the punch that a big fat .45 bullet packs. I carry a 9mm or a .38sp as a backup in case I need more than 8 rounds.

There are good things to be said about all these caliber wars, but when it comes down to it, a rifle or shotgun makes a MUCH better defensive weapon than any handgun in most cases. Since our society tends to look down on toting long guns around everywhere with us we're mostly limited in what we can carry for defense. These threads will come up over and over... The best answer that I can give to the question, though, is this: Training, practice, shot placement and mindset are what win gunfights (not necessarily in that order of importance). I carry what I shoot well. If I couldn't shoot my .45 for crap and I could hit the 9 or 10 ring every time with my .38, I'd carry that and not the 1911.

Just my experience and opinion.

 

[igousigloo]

I shoot at an indoor range in the winter months. We shoot at 2' X 3' backers with steel that 308 will not penetrate. The round stoppers are 1/2 belting in the back then 2x2 wood and then another 1/ 2 belting. Most 45's are stopped in the back belting with not much disfiguring. 380 and 38 spec about the same or less. 9 mm disintegrate and turn into small pieces of lead and brass.

 

[4thHorseman]

Agreed if one is considering FMJ only which is required by the Geneva Convention of which the U.S. Military subscribes. -Cheers

Cheers PT 92.
Just for the record the Geneva Convention does not restrict the use of hollow points or require the use of FMJ.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Cheers PT 92.
Just for the record the Geneva Convention does not restrict the use of hollow points or require the use of FMJ.

Correct. The Geneva Convention relates to prisoners, sick and wounded.

The Hague Convention prohibits the use of ammunition "designed to cause unnecessary suffering."

 

[PT92]

Correct. The Geneva Convention relates to prisoners, sick and wounded.

The Hague Convention prohibits the use of ammunition "designed to cause unnecessary suffering."

Thanks for the correction gentlemen!

-Cheers

 

[shootingthebreeze]

This past summer I had the occasion to go to 2 firing ranges and exercise my Springfield Champion .45. A friend took me to a private range where I could test the weapon's accuracy at 10 yards and I was extremely pleased with its performance.
I always gravitate towards the Champion because I love that handgun. All steel, rugged and dependable.
Though I carry other calibers I know that there would be no survivors if I used this weapon in self defense. It does not matter where a round impacts it will shatter bone. It is a fearsome caliber and I have always wondered why the US Army went with the 9mm. after having the .45 for so many years.
If one had to defend against a gang of attackers penetrating a house this weapon would be a quick equalizer.

 

[slpcrf450x]

If you want a fast kill a bullet that fragments would be ideal in my opinion... when most people think of a good hunting bullet they think of a bullet that expands to a large diameter and keeps most of its weight as it does its job inside the animal doing as little damage to meat as possible... Berger bullets however are designed to penetrate 2-3 inches and then pretty much fragment doing maximum damage to the vital organs of the animal... the only problem with this is if you use too big of round for the animal there will be lots of damage on the other side of the animal because the round will not expend all of its energy in the vitals and continue to meat...

BUT in self defense shooting other people you really dont care about the meat... so why not have a bullet that just goes in and wreaks havoc inside and produces massive shock and brings down your attacker quickly?

it seems that a large hollow point 45 might be able to do this great... i did some testing with some sierra hollowpoints that pretty much shredded themselves

http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Lines and Designs.html

 

[Dnaltrop]

I shoot .45 colt because the little boy in me likes twanging the diaphragms of everyone like guitars on the firing line after the fusillade of POP, POP, POP, 9mm and BAM, BAM, BAM, .40 subsides. BOOM.... BOOM... BOOM!! It's also more satisfying to hear and feel as you drop those giant shells into the revolver with casual deliberation before closing the gun again.

At least I'm comfortable with my inner child.

I usually carry .40 because it works, the recoil is mild (to me), and I prefer lower pressures and heavier rounds over light and fast.

 

[303tom]

The legendary stopping power of the .45 ACP is why the .30 carbine round was built !

 

[Dean1818]

A 45ACP +P is my choice, a bigger bullet, that just got faster

Spear - 200gr moving 1080 fps.

Not a death ray, but I can't CCW my rifle......

 

[MCgunner]

I laugh at these old notions. All handgun rounds are relatively weak stoppers. You can throw 9, 40, 45 all in the same basket. If you want real power bring a shotgun!

I disagree that "all" handgun rounds are weak. .44 magnum, .45 colt from a Ruger, .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, .500 linebaugh. .500 S&W magnum, .460 S&W magnum, 475 Linebaugh.....and then there are handguns chambered in .30-30, .45-70, .300 win mag, I even saw a revolver chambered in .600 nitro express!

I really like the .357 magnum over any .45ACP, though. It's a far better gun for medium game hunting, more power, more range. A 180 grain Hornady XTP at 1400 fps is packin' some PUNCH! Loaded with a 140 speer at 1340 fps, it's a damned fine self defense/carry choice, too, if you're man enough to handle all that recoil, flash, and blast. I do real well with it. Of course, I do have a Blackhawk in .45 Colt, might as well be called .45 MAGNUM Colt. It's 300 grains moving at 1200 fps and it's a mild load for the caliber. I could go hotter, but don't figure I need to. Most of my deer hunting with handguns is done with a 12" .30-30, though, lowly 150 grain Sierra BT. It's only .308 inches in diameter, but it puts 'em down in their tracks with only lung shots. Go figure.