It still comes back to bullet selection. The 300 BO will equal or exceed 5.56 barrier penetration depending on bullet construction. A 5.56 with VMax or similar bullets will fragment in wall board, and a 220gr subsonic will likely keep going similar to a pistol round.
5.56 lessons...do they mean much to a civilian?
- Thread starter gspn
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BoilerUP
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There's a reason Mk 262 ammunition was developed...
rocsteady
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OP, when I have questions like this I simply look to the end-users that post here and other places to see what they have found with actual experience.
Guys that shoot people in the face for a living and have their lives depending on the effectiveness of their weapons/ammo have opinions that are more informed and carry a lot more weight than the endless opinions of people who work a desk job. I have been fortunate to work and train with many of these guys and they will not steer anyone wrong when it comes to what works and what doesn't. They sure aren't shy about telling it exactly like it is.
5.56, even with basic M855, is deadly in the right person's hands although shot placement and range become much more of a factor with non-expanding rounds.
For an example, look at how some of the end-users describe the 70 grain Barnes TSX rounds and how its man-stopping power is "legendary". Check some of the hunting forums to see guys repeatedly showing pics of very large animals taken with these rounds and will often even show the recovered rounds for visual confirmation. We are talking wild hogs that weigh over 400 lbs. If a round can do damage to an animal with skin, bone, muscle and fat much, much tougher than any of us, how do you think that round will perform on a two-legged target?
I have personal experience with the 5.56 70 and 50 grain Barnes TSX rounds and have found that they are both devestating rounds. The 70 grain is better for longer range shooting, carries more energy and will expand down to 1800 fps whereas the 50 grain is better for shorter range, is more barrier blind but at the expense of only expanding down to roughly 2300 fps, which is what limits its range.
Both rounds dump a tremendous amount of energy into their targets and because of this they, like other expanding 5.56 rounds, have very little risk of "over penetration"...assuming of course that you do hit your intended target.
Just my $.02
Guys that shoot people in the face for a living and have their lives depending on the effectiveness of their weapons/ammo have opinions that are more informed and carry a lot more weight than the endless opinions of people who work a desk job. I have been fortunate to work and train with many of these guys and they will not steer anyone wrong when it comes to what works and what doesn't. They sure aren't shy about telling it exactly like it is.
5.56, even with basic M855, is deadly in the right person's hands although shot placement and range become much more of a factor with non-expanding rounds.
For an example, look at how some of the end-users describe the 70 grain Barnes TSX rounds and how its man-stopping power is "legendary". Check some of the hunting forums to see guys repeatedly showing pics of very large animals taken with these rounds and will often even show the recovered rounds for visual confirmation. We are talking wild hogs that weigh over 400 lbs. If a round can do damage to an animal with skin, bone, muscle and fat much, much tougher than any of us, how do you think that round will perform on a two-legged target?
I have personal experience with the 5.56 70 and 50 grain Barnes TSX rounds and have found that they are both devestating rounds. The 70 grain is better for longer range shooting, carries more energy and will expand down to 1800 fps whereas the 50 grain is better for shorter range, is more barrier blind but at the expense of only expanding down to roughly 2300 fps, which is what limits its range.
Both rounds dump a tremendous amount of energy into their targets and because of this they, like other expanding 5.56 rounds, have very little risk of "over penetration"...assuming of course that you do hit your intended target.
Just my $.02
Shawn Dodson
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None of these animals have an arm that can block the path of the bullet. When a bullet hits an arm, it expands or upsets in the arm. The temporary cavity is produced in the arm, not the body. "Energy transfer" occurs in the arm, not the body. The majority of tissue damage happens in the arm, not the body.
Why is this important? Consider Edmundo Mireles, the FBI agent who finally shot and stopped Michael Platt and William Matix during the 1986 Miami shootout. Mireles was shot in the forearm early in the gunfight by a 5.56 bullet fired by Platt. The bullet severely damaged his arm, disabling it, but it didn't take him out of the fight. His arm prevented the bullet from hitting his body.
Consider agent Gordon McNeill. He was shot in the neck by a 5.56 bullet fired by Platt. The bullet struck a vertebra in his neck, stunning his spinal cord and producing instant flaccid paralysis. The bullet deflected downward into his body. McNeill was taken out of the fight but it wasn't because of any massive damage caused by the bullet. He was taken out of the fight because of what the bullet hit.
Finally there's agent John Hanlon who was shot in the groin by Platt. Hanlon survived although he described the 5.56 wound as being very painful.
As for body shots, in a different incident, Jamie Martin Wise was shot squarely in the upper torso with a .223 bullet fired by an Alexandria police marksman during a hostage standoff. Wise staggered slightly, enabling the hostage he was holding by the neck (while pointing a sawed off shotgun against the hostage's head) to break free and flee. Wise then pointed the shotgun at Corporal Charles Hill and fired, killing him. Wise then pumped the shotgun and fired at Officer Andrew Chelchowski, severely wounding him. Wise was finally stopped by a hail of bullets.
5.56/.223 is a marginal cartridge. It produces a maximium temporary cavity diameter of about 6" regardless of what load is used. Its a varmint cartridge that may or may not quickly stop a determined human aggressor.
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mljdeckard
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I would certainly agree with the OP.
Civilians have different options than soldiers. Soldiers have automatic rifles, very few civilians do. Civilians can use whatever bullets they want, soldiers can't. They reason this round has lingered so long, is because the army FINALLY realized that a few hits from medium-effective bullets is still better than few hits if any from more effective bullets. It doesn't matter that a 300 mag is more effective if most soldiers can't effectively deliver, and most of them wouldn't be effective in the role to deliver one. A civilian can use defensive 5.56 loads that are DEVASTATING in close quarters.
Most of the comparisons that get made with other hunting rounds simply aren't applicable. When you are hunting, you may just get one shot, and you don't want to hit twice if you don't have to. When you are fighting for your life, you want to get as many hits as you can, and you don't care if you are destroying the pot roast.
Civilians have different options than soldiers. Soldiers have automatic rifles, very few civilians do. Civilians can use whatever bullets they want, soldiers can't. They reason this round has lingered so long, is because the army FINALLY realized that a few hits from medium-effective bullets is still better than few hits if any from more effective bullets. It doesn't matter that a 300 mag is more effective if most soldiers can't effectively deliver, and most of them wouldn't be effective in the role to deliver one. A civilian can use defensive 5.56 loads that are DEVASTATING in close quarters.
Most of the comparisons that get made with other hunting rounds simply aren't applicable. When you are hunting, you may just get one shot, and you don't want to hit twice if you don't have to. When you are fighting for your life, you want to get as many hits as you can, and you don't care if you are destroying the pot roast.
Nothing wrong with the 5.56 as long as you understand its limitations. When I was in the service we were taught that this cartridge could incapacitate a man at 300 yards. In those days we only had the 55 gr bullet. Granted the heavy stuff will extend that range but it really depends on your use.
There is a reason these rifles did well in Vietnam, there were no long shots in that terrain. The desert is a different story where you can have very long shots.
For what I bought the AR for it serves my purpose and that is a defensive weapon to be used at no more then 300 yards. To go beyond that I have rifles and cartridges that will blow the 5.56 away.
There is a reason these rifles did well in Vietnam, there were no long shots in that terrain. The desert is a different story where you can have very long shots.
For what I bought the AR for it serves my purpose and that is a defensive weapon to be used at no more then 300 yards. To go beyond that I have rifles and cartridges that will blow the 5.56 away.
rocsteady
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5.56 rounds in that shootout were nothing like barrier blind loads used today. Not to discredit you but you are using data from 1986?
That incident prompted the FBI to change their way of thinking and rounds must now pass their testing to be considered ready for duty. Current FBI, and many other, 5.56 rounds are capable of going through a number of mediums before contacting the target and must (MUST) be able to accomplish this to pass the testing.
These newer rounds are capable of creating the desired wounding effects after passing through mediums such as glass, plywood, metal and then through clothing placed over the ballistic gel used to test terminal effectiveness.
Your opinion of the 5.56 as a varmint cartridge "that may or may not quickly stop a determined human aggressor" is an opinion, but it's an incorrect one. There are officers, soldiers and operators around the globe that will attest to its abilities in the hands of someone with proper training and shot placement. A human arm is not enough to keep a modern hollow point/self-defense/LE round from performing as advertised.
Not trying to be rude but agencies such as the FBI would not issue the M4 to their agents, SWAT or HRT operators with a 5.56 round if they felt it was just a varmint round incapable of incapacitating human threats. Nor would these same agents, SWAT or HRT operators put themselves into harm's way if they had to question if they had the ability to protect themselves.
Many of our higher speed Bureau employees are former military and quite a few are former special forces with combat experience. These are not people who go to the fight unprepared.
That incident prompted the FBI to change their way of thinking and rounds must now pass their testing to be considered ready for duty. Current FBI, and many other, 5.56 rounds are capable of going through a number of mediums before contacting the target and must (MUST) be able to accomplish this to pass the testing.
These newer rounds are capable of creating the desired wounding effects after passing through mediums such as glass, plywood, metal and then through clothing placed over the ballistic gel used to test terminal effectiveness.
Your opinion of the 5.56 as a varmint cartridge "that may or may not quickly stop a determined human aggressor" is an opinion, but it's an incorrect one. There are officers, soldiers and operators around the globe that will attest to its abilities in the hands of someone with proper training and shot placement. A human arm is not enough to keep a modern hollow point/self-defense/LE round from performing as advertised.
Not trying to be rude but agencies such as the FBI would not issue the M4 to their agents, SWAT or HRT operators with a 5.56 round if they felt it was just a varmint round incapable of incapacitating human threats. Nor would these same agents, SWAT or HRT operators put themselves into harm's way if they had to question if they had the ability to protect themselves.
Many of our higher speed Bureau employees are former military and quite a few are former special forces with combat experience. These are not people who go to the fight unprepared.
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The caliber works fine, as people have said.
And with the Mk262 picking up, we won't have to worry about the logistics of switching to a new caliber, since it's obvious we can improve the current one and make it work better than its former variant.
And with the Mk262 picking up, we won't have to worry about the logistics of switching to a new caliber, since it's obvious we can improve the current one and make it work better than its former variant.
rocsteady
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"No Fancy-Dan "Barrier Blind" super copper bonded tritium rounds either."
Is that something like "unobtanium" enriched?
Is that something like "unobtanium" enriched?
HoosierQ
Member
I purposely sought out a 20" A2 style for my AR-15. Probably the only one I'll ever buy. When I get a carbine, I expect I'll be getting a surplus .30. I wanted a rifle.
Infidel4life11
Member
This is a good post. Y'all we can sit here all day long and bench shoot about wound tracks, bullet test in ballistic gelatin and all that real nice stuff. Has anyone ever seen a human heart after a bullet has passed through it or a human brain after impact? It resembles an explosion from the inside out. A hole in your internal organs is going to take you out of the fight or atleast make you seriously rethink *** you are doing.
Shawn Dodson
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The location of maximum wound trauma, where fragments and temporary cavity work in synergy, is located in the arm, not the torso. When the bullet exits the arm and penetrates the torso the wound trauma produced in the torso is mild because the bullet is merely crushing tissue it comes into direct contact with, like a handgun bullet does. I refer you to the 5.56mm wound profiles on slide 16 of this presentation (slide with the 77gr MK262 OTM wound profile on top) - http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf . The wound produced in the torso, after passing though an arm, will be similar to .22 LR, as depicted by the last few inches of the wound track after the bullet expands.
"Proper" shot placement isn't always possible because situations are dynamic and adversaries are moving - unless they stand still and are squared-up like a paper target.
The bullet that struck Jamie Martin Wise, unobstructed, in the mid-back, from about 15 yards, nicked his spine, cut his aorta and damaged his liver. Despite the massive trauma (and energy transfer) there was no physiological reason for him to instantly collapse and he was able to act with volition and shoot two police officers, one fatally, after being hit.
In regard to unobstructed torso hits, note that the diameter of the temporary cavity produced by 5.56 bullets in slide 16 is about 4" (about the same diameter as a slow pitch softball). (I incorrectly stated 6” in my last post.) This is insufficient to reliably produce concussion of the spinal cord, caused when soft tissues are propelled radially outward from the wound track. Larger bullets, with greater mass and momentum, create a larger temporary cavity (6-8+”). The sudden displacement of this large mass of soft tissue can cause spinal bones to forcefully slam into the spinal cord, disrupting and stunning nerves and produce instant flaccid paralysis. The small temporary cavity produced by 5.56 bullets is the reason why it’s a varmint cartridge. Yes, it can produce gory looking wounds and kill, but it’s a marginal cartridge cannot be reliably counted on to drop a determined human adversary like a sack of potatoes in the same manner that a larger bullet does. Like a handgun bullet it must disrupt the nervous system to have instant effect. If it doesn’t then an adversary can continue to perform willful activity until blood loss disrupts brain function. There is no “magic” in the bullet’s velocity, energy transfer, fragmentation, etc.
Look for the FBI and other law enforcement agencies to transition to .300 Blackout in the future, like they did from 9mm MP5s to 5.56 AR platforms. Larger, heavier bullets have more mass to fragment, more momentum to transfer, produce greater wounding effects and more rapid incapacitation.
rocsteady
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SD,
I think you may be right on the 300 black transition. Hard to argue with the terminal results of that round in an LE confrontation. Seems to be easier to mainstraim than some of the "boutique" rounds like the 6.8 (another round that shows tremedous terminal ballistics).
If you told me I was to walk around corner and be in a one shot engagement with a "bad guy", it would be hard to argue with that round.
Good point. If a 70 grain TSX from a 5.56 is good, a larger, heavier round from a 300 black should be notably more impressive
I think you may be right on the 300 black transition. Hard to argue with the terminal results of that round in an LE confrontation. Seems to be easier to mainstraim than some of the "boutique" rounds like the 6.8 (another round that shows tremedous terminal ballistics).
If you told me I was to walk around corner and be in a one shot engagement with a "bad guy", it would be hard to argue with that round.
Good point. If a 70 grain TSX from a 5.56 is good, a larger, heavier round from a 300 black should be notably more impressive
The really nice thing about military ammo is that it's free and you can have all you can carry. I believe sniper teams aren't just a shooter and a spotter now. I've heard they have some guys with a load of 5.56mm protecting them from the bad guys. Gunny Hathcock did it the hard way.
C-grunt
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What a text book sniper team is and what actually goes out of the wire can be two distinct different things.
leadcounsel
member
Take a well-publicized performance of the AR15 - the DC sniper. Doubt he gave much thought to the type of bullet used, and he was using a stolen AR15 Bushmaster. Shots from 50-100 yards with random .223 rounds. Most victims were hit once and died, or had massive wounds. Granted they aren't the same cross section of population that a hard criminal is, but presumably you'd also be able to pull the trigger multiple times and get multiple hits...
The .223/5.56 is a devestating round responsible for a lot of dead people in the world...
The .223/5.56 is a devestating round responsible for a lot of dead people in the world...
Do you have a source, citation, or reference showing this?
justice06rr
Member
it would be great if they make that switch to 300BLK so that ammo for that round will become more available locally. Plus 300BLK offers a wide variety of ammo type from subsonic(suppressed) to supersonic and can still be effective out to 200+yards, and is also optimal for use in SBR's.
leadcounsel
member
As I said, I doubt he gave much thought to the bullets used. He was homeless, broke, and was trying to ransom/extort money for his murders using a STOLEN rifle. Odds are he didn't hem and haw over the various bullets he used 10 years ago, when less were on the market. Educated guess they were either stolen with the rifle, shoplifted from a store, stolen from somewhere else, or he bought whatever was cheapest at the gunshop.
Stop being so sensible in caliber debates please. To add, we generally have superior firepower at all levels be it size or volume. Regardless, lots of friends with lots of those small 5.56 bullets applied tactically is very effective. Here, I vote 5.56. Just me, I want more gun.
alsaqr
Member
This.
i've killed a couple hundred wild hogs using M193 5.56mm ammo. At ranges to about 150 yards the bullet penetrates about 5-6" yaws 90 degrees and fragments. Once in a great while the bullet will punch a small clean hole; its happened to me once.
Col. Fackler on wound ballistics:
http://bajaarizona.org/fklr/fklr.html
meanmrmustard
Member
On top of that, it was a Bushmaster!
See, this is a problem. You made a matter of fact statement regarding his ammunition choice when you are clearly just making it up as you go along based on what you *think* *may* have been the case.
This is not the way we should be representing anything.
I like the 5.56 accuracy, and frankly that's as important to me as the caliber. It seems to work pretty good. But I think you need to consider the availability of ammo, and at least for me, the cost. You can stock up on ammo for a good price. You can practice and not spend a ton. You have good option in bullets. You have good options in tracers. All around, good gun to have on hand. Also, parts are easy to get. Very important in my book. my 2 cents. and if you reload, even better.
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