5.56 m855 penetrator in a .223 rifle?

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Helotaxi, that's the most concise and logical explanation I've ever seen. And it makes sense. Do you you have any references where we can verify this, or is it all from memory?

EDIT: Unregard. Early in the morning and forgot the topic I was posting in.

It's from memory and distilled down from having to repeatedly answering the question. I don't put much faith in Wikipedia, but the cartridge and chamber prints are hard to dispute and they can be found there. Google will turn up the CIP standards as well as the NATO standards.
 
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Ummmm.... no pressure signs means that you are operating under about 70 KPSI. Sure you want to use that as your guide?
.223 and 5.56 operate at about the same pressure as the NATO maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI works out to be about the same as the SAAMI 52,000 CUP. The only appreciable difference between SAAMI and NATO chamber specs is the amount of freebore. This is what can potentially cause the pressure spike, using heavier bullets in NATO cartridges. It has nothing to do with NATO and SAAMI spec cartridges operating at different pressures, as they don't. Now, most manufacturers use modified SAAMI chambers, as the fast rate of twist, which allows for heavier, longer bullets to be used, necessitates an increase in the amount of freebore in the chambers. The Savage Axis has a 1 in 9 in twist rate, meaning it's designed to accommodate heavier bullets, up to about 68 grains (M855 contains 62gr projectiles). So theoretically, there should be no issues with firing M855 out of his rifle, but I was suggesting he try a few rounds to verify that there isn't an unsafe pressure spike before shooting large quantities of it through his rifle.
 
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The only appreciable difference between SAAMI and NATO chamber specs is the amount of freebore. This is what can potentially cause the pressure spike, using heavier bullets in NATO cartridges.
The leade angle is also different and probably the more important difference. Bullet weight has nothing to do with it either. The chambers were different even before the NATO load moved to the 62gn M855 bullet. Even M193 will cause high pressures in a .223 chamber and it is a 55gn bullet. The 5.56 has always been loaded hotter and has always needed the longer freebore and shallower leade to keep pressures within limits.

The presence of heavier bullets and faster twists have nothing to do with the reason that most rifles don't have a SAAMI spec chamber. Liability and the knowledge that people are going to fire 5.56 ammo in their .223 rifles is the reason. Bullets that can be stabilized in a 1:9 twist don't need anything special with regard to chamber accommodations. Pressures with such bullets would be controlled the same way you normally control pressure, with powder selection and load work-up.
 
If I understand that, it has to do with the volume of the chamber; giving the gases a little more room to expand before the bullet accelerates down the bore and gets out of the way.
 
PMC Bronze is your friend. Do NOT count on Chairborne Rangers footing your medical expenses, should you blow up your rifle, and parts of your anatomy with it. :eek:
 
.223 and 5.56 operate at about the same pressure as the NATO maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI works out to be about the same as the SAAMI 52,000 CUP. The only appreciable difference between SAAMI and NATO chamber specs is the amount of freebore.

Absolutely not so.

5.56 operates at up to 62,350 PSI measured at the case mouth. 223 operates at 55,000 PSI measured in the middle of the case body. Yes, the 223 is also spec'd at 52,000 CUP. But that is not the source of the discrepancy. If you keep everything in PSI, there is just over 7,000 PSI difference in the pressure numbers, about 5,000 PSI of which MIGHT be from difference in the measurement system.

Ramshot did some testing on that, and I have a note in to them asking for more info. I may have something to post in a day or two.
 
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I have a Savage 112 FV, that best I can understand, I can change that caliber by changing the bolt head, barrel, and blind mag floor plate. So shooting M855 does not worry me, it's the same ammo I use in my AR's. I also have a Savage 12 BVSS, but I will do some research prior to firing the M855 from it.
 
Common sense makes it hard to believe the stuff being reported about .223 & 5.56 ammo.

1) 5.56 with heavier bullets are longer and stick into the back of the rifling.
--- This just isn't so, both have a max overall length of 2.260 inches. The longer bullets have to be seated deeper, and a longer length bullet won't fit in the magazine.

2) The 5.56 has a higher pressure specification.
--- Hard to say since they are said to measure pressures differently, but I do believe this may be true, since I believe I read that the M855 has a muzzle velocity well over 3000 (must take a lot of pressure). However, the M16 chamber and the AR15 are the same except for the longer leade (refer to item 1 above) and the M16 fires full auto. If the M16s don't blow up the ARs should be OK.

3) Differences in .223 and 5.56 case sizes.
--- This has been thoroughly debunked here already.

4) That leaves me with one more point few raise. What might happen if a gun company, dealer, or other professional tells a person it's safe to shoot a 5.56 in a .223, then something goes wrong and he gets hurt? Court will certainly be the next step. So common sense tells me that professionals will never tell you to shoot a 5.56 in a .223.
 
Let's see:

1. SAAMI says military 5.56mm cases are thicker (heavier) than commercial .223 cases. This is not true of US military 5.56mm cases. i've been weighing cases since 1968. the thickest US made cases are Federal American Eagle and Federal Gold Metal .223 cases. Brit military cases are thick. The thickest cases are Lapua. See tech, see brass weights.

http://ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml

SAAMI has published both CUP numbers And ANSI psi numbers for numerous cartridges but not the .223. Wonder why?

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
 
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Absolutely not so.

5.56 operates at up to 62,350 PSI measured at the case mouth. 223 operates at 55,000 PSI measured in the middle of the case body. Yes, the 223 is also spec'd at 52,000 CUP. But that is not the source of the discrepancy. If you keep everything in PSI, there is just over 7,000 PSI difference in the pressure numbers, about 5,000 PSI of which MIGHT be from difference in the measurement system.

Ramshot did some testing on that, and I have a note in to them asking for more info. I may have something to post in a day or two.
Look at the CIP standards which use the same measuring method as NATO. They specify the exact same pressure for the .223 and the 5.56. Again the difference is that the chamber of the 5.56 allows a cartridge with more powder behind the bullet to stay within that pressure limit. That is the only point that really matters in the discussion. The case dimensions are the same. The cases are the same. The bullets are the same. The rifle can handle the pressure of the 5.56 round, because if the rifle is produced or sold in Europe, that is the pressure of commercial loaded ammo in the proper chamber. The problem is that 5.56 ammo in the .223 chamber generates MORE pressure than the 5.56 round does in a 5.56 chamber. Tested into the 85kpsi range kind of more. That's proof load territory.

CUP is a terrible pressure measurement tool. It was used when developing load data because it was all that was available at the time. Now that piezo transducers are available that can provide real time pressures in fractions of a millisecond intervals, it is the new standard. CUP does not translate to another unit of measure.

The standards linked on the SAAMI web page is dated from 1992. There are at least 2 more recent versions of the .223 standards in particular that supersede that data. It would be nice if SAAMI would update their resources.
 
Don't you find it odd that the .270 Win is specd for 52,000 ANSI CUP and 65,000 ANSI PSI, but .223 Rem is specd for 52,000 ANSI CUP and 55,000 ANSI PSI?

Yes I do. If you take graph paper, put CUP on the horizontal axis and PSI on the vertical axis, then put a dot on the chart for all the SAAMI cartridges that have specs for both, the 223 is a statistical outlier on the trend line. I have no idea why that happened, but something apparently changed between the time they set the CUP spec and the time they set the piezo spec.
 
No they don't.
I stand corrected but the fact remains that the pressure number is the same. Pressure should be the same throughout the vessel and peak pressure occurs after the bullet has left the case. Whether the transducer is in the neck or body of the case is splitting hairs.

I wouldn't say terrible, but I would say far short of ideal.
For what it is meant to measure, it's truly terrible. When it was all that there was, it was better than nothing, but not by much. Now that there are methods for measuring pressures directly, all references to CUP need to be eliminated. I can get about as accurate a measurement of length by looking at something as a copper crusher gives of peak pressure...actually I can probably eyeball it better. I wouldn't trust my TLAR with my safety.
 
Now that there are methods for measuring pressures directly, all references to CUP need to be eliminated.

On that, we are in violent agreement. It won't be long before CUP is just a quaint historical footnote, which is where it belongs.

Whether the measurement is taken at the center of the case or at the mouth is definitely not splitting hairs. Having the brass case between the gas and the chamber produces an offset in the neighborhood of 5,000 PSI. I know Ramshot did some testing on that, and found an offset closer to 1,000 PSI. I'm trying to get some additional information from them. Maybe it is a big deal, maybe not.

If all else fails, I have a dual trace pressure measuring system that I built. If I get to be curious enough, I do have the ability to take two simultaneous measurements, one at mid-case and one at the case mouth, on the same cartridge. But I'd much rather mooch data from someone who has already done that.
 
Yes I do. If you take graph paper, put CUP on the horizontal axis and PSI on the vertical axis, then put a dot on the chart for all the SAAMI cartridges that have specs for both, the 223 is a statistical outlier on the trend line. I have no idea why that happened, but something apparently changed between the time they set the CUP spec and the time they set the piezo spec.
So why is this?

If the CUP method was that inaccurate, don't you think we would have seen quite a number of rifles blown up as a result?

As the .223 is the statistical anomaly, and the C.I.P. lists .223 and 5.56 as operating within the same pressure specifications, I'm inclined to discount the SAAMI numbers as inaccurate. Plus, maybe being in Canada leads me to favour C.I.P. over SAAMI anyway.
 
At the same time that I did the conversion formula from CUP to PSI, I did another one for converting back and forth between CIP and SAAMI PSI. But that was two computers ago. Last night, I looked for the spreadsheet and didn't find it. I'll check my relic out in the workshop and see if it is hiding there.

CIP and SAAMI PSI are pretty highly correlated, but you cannot simply substitute one number for the other, any more than you can substitute CUP for PSI.

So why is this?

I think it is because humans were involved.

Edited to add:

Found the CIP SAAMI conversion formula: SAAMI PSI = -17040 + 1.269 * CIP PSI.

Plugging the CIP spec of 62,366 into the formula predicts a SAAMI spec of 62,102. So no great difference from system to system for that cartridge. That lends credibility to the argument that the SAAMI 223 PSI spec is artificially low.

Still looking for some info from Ramshot.
 
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I have both calibers. I have shot hundreds of of 5.56 rounds from .223's. But there is one thing you really should pay attention to.

That is the chamber on your .223. I have found the ogive on most 5.56 ammo to have a shorter radius making the fat part of the bullet stick a bit further into the chamber.

If you have a tight .223 chamber you may very well engage the lands in your .223 with the 5.56 bullet. This will cause excessive pressure.

I have never, ever, heard of a .223 blowing up from shooting 5.56. Your mileage may vary. But it is just not prudent to stuff a bullet into the rifling.

I always measure the chamber or just chamber a round. If the bolt closes hard it is very hard on your lugs and you can gall them easier than you might imagine. It also means you probably stuffed the bullet into the lands. You should know with certainty what your situation is.

I have a tool that makes it easy for me to measure the bullet combination I intend to use. With the tool I can tell in about two minutes if its ok or not.

My Ruger .223 has a chamber that is too tight for 5.56 so I don't shoot it in my Ruger. But I have had several other .223's including some Thompson Center Contender and Encore barrels that 5.56 worked in just fine.
 
Here is the reply I got from Ramshot. It does help some.

You are correct; the tests methods for SAAMI and NATO are different. All of our published loads were tested using the SAAMI Conformal method with a Transducer measuring chamber pressure in a 223 barrel. The 5.56 chamber provides for lower pressures, because of the free bore length and the lead angle. We have performed numerous tests comparing Case Mouth pressures with Chamber Pressures, and at 62350 psi Chamber pressure, you will have a safe port mouth pressure in your 5.56.

OK... all testing done in a 223 chamber. All testing was done with the SAAMI test method, none with the NATO test method. Their 62,350 PSI 223 load will produce lower pressure in a 5.56 chamber. They have checked case mouth vs. mid-case measurements against each other, and are satisfied that their 62,350 PSI loads are safe in a 5.56.

That's helpful.
 
The US Army has acceptance standards for ammunition and everything else. Every lot of military ammunition is tested, accepted or rejected by civilian Quality Assurance Specialsits Ammunition Surveillance (QUASAS).


My only copy of the acceptance standards for 5.56mm ball ammo is out of date. MIL-C-63989C dated 15 February, 1994:

3.6 Velocity. The average velocity of the cartridges,
conditioned at 700 + 2°F, shall be 3000 feet per second (fps) plus
or minus 40 fps at 78 feet from the muzzle of the weapon. The
standard deviation of the velocities shall not exceed 40 fps.

3.7 Chamber pressure. The average chamber pressure of the
sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° + 2°F shall not exceed
55,000 psi. Neither the chamber pressure of an individual sample
test cartridge nor the average chamber pressure plus three standard
deviations of chamber pressure shall exceed 61,000 psi.
 
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