5.7x28 for defensive carry

[barnbwt]

I know a lot of MP5s were replaced by UMPs, and after what appear to be pretty widely disfavorable reviews compared to the predecessor, they were replaced with...M4s. Not the MP5s that were both beloved and had served valiantly for decades. Other municipalities went directly from MP5s to M4s. Some, like my muni, got P90's as (I believe) their first select fire carbines, and after using the heck out of them for (I think) about ten years with enough success to warrant using them for ten years, then discovered they could essentially sell their fairly worn guns to other departments or as parts kits for about as much as a new, much more powerful M4 costs.

The M4 has universally dominated all subgun usage in the last five years, because it was truly something of a game-changer in the service rifle role. Nothing prior had been able to deliver that kind of power in a small package to patrol officers (outside of shorty AKs, at least). Me? I think at least some portion will eventually go back to various subguns when M4s are old-hat in another five or ten years and a new kid is on the block, just as has happened since, what, the mini-14? Probably MPXs or the new B&T carbine, since they appear to be the new hotness.

"Give the choice I'd rather have a carbine over a PDW."
And this tells me everything I need to know about your unrealistic expectations of the 5.7x28 (no insult intended, they're the same unrealistic expectations of every procurement officer who bought P90's when the job called for something with 3X the velocity behind it)
TCB

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

"Give the choice I'd rather have a carbine over a PDW."
And this tells me everything I need to know about your unrealistic expectations of the 5.7x28 (no insult intended, they're the same unrealistic expectations of every procurement officer who bought P90's when the job called for something with 3X the velocity behind it)
TCB

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that I think it's very powerful or that it's underpowered?

 

[barnbwt]

I'm saying it's very akin to stating "I'd prefer a 308 to a 223" because the two platforms aren't really all that comparable in terms of power (or arguably, mission; P90 was never intended to be a storming/offensive weapon, even though it is pressed into that role). Just because a new tool came along with far more power than was previously available for the job (or acceptable; stupid political correctness) doesn't change how effective the old MP5 or what-have-you was at getting the job done. Just progress.

But, to only-slightly bring this back to the original topic --the round from a handgun-- comparisons between the PS90 and a 5.56-anything aren't all that informative, since it's not like you'll be stepping up to something similarly more powerful in a handgun (well, unless you're Charles Bronson circa 1974). The alternatives you're likely to see are 45acp, 40S&W, 357SIG, and 9mm/+P, and as I've done my best to support with repeated experimental evidence rather than some guy's professional (anecdotal) assertion, the difference 'twixt any of them really don't amount to a whole lot. Certainly nothing like the performance gains seen going from 5.7/9mm to 223 in the same-length barrel. Apparently not enough for most users to go back to a 9mm semi from a 5.7 platform, instead of jumping all the way up to 5.56. And that, since good 9mm is more than a match for any close-range defensive target, 5.7 probably is, too, only you'd also be able to shoot farther and more times with it (which is probably more useful in a 'Paris style' or 'San Bernardino style' terrorist rifle-shooting, than the traits needed for more common defensive carry which any of a plethora of smaller handguns are better adapted for)

TCB

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I'm saying it's very akin to stating "I'd prefer a 308 to a 223" because the two platforms aren't really all that comparable in terms of power (or arguably, mission; P90 was never intended to be a storming/offensive weapon, even though it is pressed into that role). Just because a new tool came along with far more power than was previously available for the job (or acceptable; stupid political correctness) doesn't change how effective the old MP5 or what-have-you was at getting the job done. Just progress.

I hope you realize that I actually like the 5.7x28 cartridge. I was just noting that the people that dropped the 5.7 in favor of 5.56 probably switched because they realized that a carbine is more effective than a PDW if you are using it for offensive purposes.

 

[MASTARBLASTER]

I think in a situation where I had a handgun and was facing numerous assailants with full-auto rifles, my main priority would be trying to avoid getting their attention anyway, not shooting at them in an across-the-room firefight.

Following the winding discourse of this thread and a com(m)e(n)t of blazing light of wisdom appears. First and foremost a man should use his mind in any volatile situation where firearms are a tool of life saving strategy, and concealing ones weapon becomes a wise tactic.........

______________________________________________________________________
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
Founding Father
Military General
First Elected President of the United States- GEORGE WASHINGTON

 

[barnbwt]

let no 5.7 thread go unlocked...

 

[strambo]

let no 5.7 thread go unlocked...

Heh, roger. Maybe nobody's heart was really in it? I think we can do better!

Like I posted in the M1 carbine vs. M4 thread, all weapons have strengths and weaknesses, maximize the former while minimizing the latter.

If I had to carry a 5.7, the obvious weakness is terminal performance, strengths are capacity and low recoil/fast follow up shots. Via training and practice: engage with more rounds and consider bursts to the body and head.

This will leverage the capacity to create 4-5 wound channels instead of 2-3 and increase terminal performance with better placement. My hand to hand training system has a saying "The best way to increase your striking power is to improve your targeting."

However, on a gun forum that is just hot air and lip service. The typical gun owner has never received professional firearms training beyond a CCW class and won't. Their typical practice session amounts to plinking because they don't know what they don't know about defensive shooting. Training under stress via force on force? Forget it.

So, with any gun this lack of training is an issue in a gun fight, (slightly) bigger issue with even less terminal performance on tap. But with good quality training, an accurate burst to the upper chest and head under stress is very doable.

I met a retired SWAT cop yesterday, his only shooting he got 3 upper chest hits, no misses. But then, he was a very well-trained SWAT cop and firearms instructor...

I don't think it's a bad choice for the OP, a terrorist attack in the open. Seek cover and maximize distance, wounding a terrorist from a half block away will probably take them out of the fight or seriously degrade them like in battle. You don't need to rapidly incapacitate them with distance and cover like you do in a bad-breath distance gunfight.

OTOH, lots of similar size 9mms with the same or similar capacity, My P226 that I carry often has flush-fit 18rd mags.

 

[Hunter2011]

I have not read all the posts, will do so later today. But if ever you are attacked by terrorist, which is a possibility these days... Are they not wearing body armor? They are usually not more than 4 people?
Therefore I will not carry a higher powered .22 just for extra shots. If you do your part, your 34 shots in 9mm will be very effective already. I have never heard before in these attacks where civilians downed terrorist as nobody that carries seems to be there when they attacked. 34 shots in 9mm sounds good to me. You need as powerful rounds as possible, so a higher speed .22 against terrorists wiling to die for their cause, I do not think I will go for it myself

 

[barnbwt]

You can probably use AP 9mm in SA, so the question is more mooted

TCB

 

[GBExpat]

Wow ... this subject is quite like Religion and/or Politics.

I am one of many (I am sure) who would love to have both a 5.7x28 pistol and PS90 ... but ... I have decided to not go there because the ammunition is not easily ("easily" like 9mm, .45acp, .223, etc) reloaded.