50 year C&R ruling to freeze?

[armoredman]

...i might add that c&r is just a comfy way of saying "little or no combat value" ...

Ok...more for me. BTW, ever look at the C&R list? You mgith want to - there are FALs, 25mm cannon, 75 mm anti-tank guns, Dragunovs, Armalite Ar15s, BAR 1918, M2 browning 50 cal HB, etc.... you see, there are three sections to the C&R list. The first is straight C&R, the second is removed from NFA 34, (mostly old short barreld shotguns, ie, Gamegetter, etc), ad then the fun one, NFA C&R. You still have to go through the NFA rules, but then they ship it to you direct. Would be cool to have a german Pak40 75mm anti tank gun sitting on the porch....totally useless in combat, of course....but then, who said collecting was for combat?

 

[Correia]

That's great ajkurp, it would be nice to live your nice black and white world. But here in the real world, those of us in the gun business have to interact with the ATF on a constant basis. If I have to work with an agency in order to conduct business, whether I agree or disagree with that agencies politics doesn't mean jack squat. If I want to be in business I have to work with them. Since I do, I want to work with professionals. The more people like Gewehr, who are members of the "gun culture" that take jobs in federal agencies, the better off we all are.

 

[chopinbloc]

i stand corrected, armoredman. i was just going by the guns i've seen advertised as c&r elligible.

i should add that i've had quite a few phone conversations with atf guys and they are always very polite and courteous. they also tend not to like the laws they are charged with enforcing. at least, that's the impression i got. i once asked an atf agent about the process for getting an sbr. he gave me a very straightforward explanation and commented that he thought the reason for all the hoops was just to discourage people from bothering with the whole thing. my friend called the atf to find out if it was legal to attach a folding stock to his sks. the agent said he couldn't readily find out by serial number but send a letter to dc etc.... then he says "are you gonna be robbing banks with it?" my friend says no and the agent replies "then how are we gonna find out?" these guys are not the jackbooted thugs so many people think they are. at least in the phoenix area, they all seem to be shooters and firearms enthusiasts and are concerned about finding large shipments of unregistered mg's from mexico or crazy people that want to blow stuff up. another interesting bit of trivia i found out in my sbr conversation was that only an atf agent has any right to ask to see your nfa paperwork. if local law enforcement wants to see it you can tell 'em to pee up a rope.

 

[nomadboi]

My (very limited) ATF experience has been that of nice people trapped in a huge beurocracy. I had a question about legality of something... asked the police, they referred me to the ATF. First number on the local ATF website didn't work. Second was a recording sending me to another number. That number got a local agent who had no idea how to answer my question and gave me a number to their firearms technology department in Virginia.

Called that, get a recording saying they no longer answer phone calls or take messages or emails, but to send them a snail-mail letter.

Surprisingly enough, I did get a phone call from the guy a few weeks later, and he was very helpful. Simple answer to what should have been a simple question, but apparently none of the local ATF agents or police knew that, and some were trying to make it unneccessarily complicated.

Oh, the question? What makes something a gun vs. a non-gun. I had been hoping I could modify a shotgun reciever so it could still cycle casings, but was incapable of firing, and then make that a legal non-gun prop to rent out to a theatre company. No dice- the whole once-a-gun, always-a-gun thing.
Some of the local folks were trying to tell me it was totally different for every model of firearm, though, which seemed a staggeringly inefficient way to make laws.

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

As far as I see things, as much as I would love to see M14's and 16's on the C&R list, I think the chances of it are slim and none. The ATF is not in the business of doing positive things - they take away, and little else.

Also - calling federal agents cowardly and abusive isn't that far of a stretch if you've had to deal with enough of them. There are scores of good men and women in the ranks, but just go to your local airport and you can bask in the competence of your own TSA agents.

 

[Gordon Fink]

[T]hen [the agent] says “are you gonna be robbing banks with it?” [M]y friend says no and the agent replies “then how are we gonna find out?”

Ah! Even the BATFE recognizes the quintessential problem of gun-control “laws.”

Personally, I expect the C&R “loophole” to be closed before too long. What will happen when the prohibitionists realize that regular citizens can buy battle/sniper rifles and even “assault weapons” over the Internet without additional waiting periods, background checks, or registration?

~G. Fink

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm sure Standing Wolf thinks the time spent on this case was a blatant example of federal tax dollars run amok. Oh, the horror.

I certainly do. All the King's horses worked on the Unibomber case for years and years and years and years without coming up with anything. The breakthrough ONLY came because they finally started giving out details and the published letter was instantly recognized by the man's brother. It turned out, of course, that their predictions were so far off as to be humorous.

No, I think we would do just fine without the "help" of the BATFE.

Yes, obviously those with a federal license have to interact with them. In understand that. But the fact that some of the agents may be good people means nothing. The agency itself should not exist. It has no basis in the Constitution, nor do the laws and regulations it enforces.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

US Code 178.11 defines "Curio & Relic" firearms. Part of that definition is firearms manufactured over 50 years ago. ATF cannot decide on their own to change this definition. It must be changed just like any other law, passing both the house, senate and president.

 

[MikeB]

What do you get when you pour clean water into dirty water? Just more dirty water.

If you pour enough clean water in, you actually end up with clean water.

Also, I believe there are a couple of either select fire or full auto weapons on the C&R list already. As well these two sections of the C&R listings indicate a weapon can be removed from NFA status and put on C&R status.

SEC. III.Weapons removed from the NFA as collector's items which are
determined to be curios or relics subject to the provisions of the GCA.

SEC. IIIA.Weapons removed from the NFA as collector's items which are
antiques not subject to the provisions of the GCA.

Of course I'm not holding my breath or anything.