C&R

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MI2600

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There is/was a listing in the GB "Curios and Relics" section for a handgun waaay over 50 years old. The only change ever made on the gun (according to the seller) was that it had been refinished. However in the seller's conditions statement, he stated he would not accept a C&R FFL.

I sent him a query. His response was that it was "not original"!

Is there some caveat in the ATF rules that I missed?
 
According to the rules, it has to be in original configuration to be C&R. Refinishing should not affect configuration. However, some people don't know the rules or just don't accept C&Rs anyway. I ran into a problem purchasing a cz-82 with my C&R. The dealer would not accept it because he didn't know the law. Tried to tell me it wasn't eligible because it wasn't 50 years old. Even when I showed him it was listed specifically on the C&R list he wouldn't listen to me.
 
There is/was a listing in the GB "Curios and Relics" section for a handgun waaay over 50 years old. The only change ever made on the gun (according to the seller) was that it had been refinished. However in the seller's conditions statement, he stated he would not accept a C&R FFL.

I sent him a query. His response was that it was "not original"!

Is there some caveat in the ATF rules that I missed?
No one is under any obligation to accept a C&R including FFL's and Gun Shops even though the firearm is a C&R.
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Welcome to the world of C&R. I was in it for many, many years, but finally didn't renew. The recorded keeping was a breeze and the compliance inspection was nothing. The sellers who are utterly clueless on the C&R regulations are legion though.
 
I've had my C&R licence for twenty plus years and I have run into all of the above problems. The most common one is the seller thinking that a gun has to be on the list to be a C&R. The list is a list of exceptions to the 50 year rule. Another is the misconception that class III weapons cannot be C&Rs. They can and they are. The Rock Island Auction Co. has been selling some class III weapons in recent auctions. A lot of them are listed as C&Rs. Of course, all NFA rules still apply to the transfer.

I worked for a class III manufacturer for 21 years. (Les Baer) I don't think we ever made a single rattle gun, Les had the Special Tax Stamp for his Manufacturer's licence solely for the purpose of collecting.

My point is this. When you work under those conditions you meet a LOT of ATF people (Mostly inspectors!) and when I would ask them questions about C&Rs even THEY were confused! I got answers in both directions for the refinish question. Ditto for the parts replacement question. Most seemed to think if the refinishing and/or parts replacements were done by the original manufacturer, it was good to go.

C&Rs are sometimes frustrating. If you find a good retailer with a brain, hold onto him for dear life. I'm lucky to have one in my area who is famous for his Lugers. I do all of my C&R activity with him.
 
I wanted to agree with tark. I had an FFL INSIST that an FN model 1922 was not on the list and therefore had to go through a class 1...even though they quit making them in the 1940s.
 
How does one determine a firearm is a C and R if purchasing from an auction or some other venue.

Does one need to bring a sheet of paper with serial numbers that prove the gun is 50 years old, or convince the auctioner?
 
He doesn't have to accept a C&R, but gunbroker started cracking down on people listing otherwise C&R eligible guns in the C&R section and the seller refusing to accept a C&R license. It used to be a lot more common than it is now and I think an email (or "report this auction" report) to GB could probably get the listing moved or even yanked. I've reported two different auctions and they were both removed fairly quickly. That was a couple of years ago, but they may be helpful.

Matt
 
I have had retailers refuse to directly ship me a C&R eligible firearm. Their response is often that they simply refuse to honor the 03FFL because it cannot be 'verifed' using the ATF FFLeZCheck website. That is nothing more than a 'business decision' on their part, and thus it is my choice as to whether I then want to do any business with them. Many times a seller has lost a C&R sale with me because the additional $20-$25 local 01FFL transfer fee made the total price unattractive. I now make it a point of asking before I bid on an online auction.
 
How does one determine a firearm is a C and R if purchasing from an auction or some other venue.

It either needs to be on the list or 50+ years old. If it isn't on the list and there is any question as to its age, obtaining documentation either online or by phone/fax/etc from the manufacturer may help.

Does one need to bring a sheet of paper with serial numbers that prove the gun is 50 years old, or convince the auctioner?

Like mentioned earlier, what is needed to "prove" it all depends upon the seller. They are under no obligation to accept a C&R, even if you can prove to your satisfaction that the firearm qualifies.

From my experience, if they aren't already well versed in C&R FFLs, no information you bring is going to convince them, whether it is the C&R list, a letter from the manufacturer stating the date of manufacturer, or whatever. I suppose there are always exceptions, but...

If they are somewhat familiar with C&Rs, some sort of documentation on the firearm's age, or a copy of the C&R list, if it is on there, _may_ help. No guarantee though, since anyone could falsify documents they are supplying themselves.

If the seller is very familiar with C&Rs and the firearms they're selling, nothing but a copy of your C&R FFL would be needed. If they know C&Rs but aren't that familiar with the firearm, a copy of the list or some info regarding age may be needed to verify that the firearm qualifies. What is considered acceptable proof is again subject to the whims of the seller, though.

tl;dr version: If you insist on only purchasing via your C&R, verify that it is kosher with the seller/auctioneer beforehand.
 
il.bill, those retailers simply don't understand that a C&R if a Federal Firearms Licence, same as their type 1 licence. No background check is necessary. Neither is the filling out of a 4473 form. Unless state laws (California is the worst offender) require additional steps, A C&R should be able to go to any state, Sign a copy of his licence, plunk down his money and walk out with the gun then and there. The retailer's signed copy of the licence is the only record he needs to keep.

And the fifty year rule can be rather difficult at times to determine. So many guns were made before 1968 without serial numbers, but in three more years that will work to our advantage. Any gun without a serial after 2018 will be an automatic C&R for the above reason.
 
I let mine lapse after 9 years nearly a year ago.

As mentioned, a seller has no obligation to accept a C&R if they don't want to - and with firearms laws being what they are sometimes I don't blame them (hard to keep track of what state may or may not have passed an additional restriction without you knowing).

Plus, the record keeping requirement was a turn off (I always kept mine as per required, but it was always a worry in the back of my mind that maybe I hadn't filled out something perfectly).

To make matters worse - I mostly buy handguns. Plain FFL's can have handguns shipped via USPS. C&R holders have to use UPS or Fedex overnight (some vendors can ship 2nd day). The difference between those two shipping methods was often about the cost of a regular FFL transfer. Plus I'm not home during the day, so I was always having to drive to the distribution center to pickup the package anyways. That's about 40 minutes away compared to around 15 minutes to the FFL that I use.

And the final nail in the coffin was MidwayUSA discontinuing their dealer discount program (though truthfully some other vendors like Midsouth Shooters Supply were already matching their "discounted" prices with their standard retail anyways).

I personally just don't see the point in opening myself up to potential inspections or record keeping requirements for no real gain.
 
Bsa1, that is interesting because I have found Cabelas to be one of the few big retailers that DOES recognize a C&R. I drive to California from Illinois twice a year to visit my son. Cabelas' world headquarters is in Sidney, Nebraska. I stopped there last year and spotted a pristine 1909 Argentine Mauser. I showed him my C&R, he nodded and I walked out with the gun. A signed copy of the licence was the only paperwork exchanged, other than a few $100 dollar bills!

I have bought three more guns there since that day, all rifles. Not sure about a pistol. I'll have to try that one out in the future.
 
Cabelas in Hammond Indiana will not accept a C&R. Tried to buy a Drilling from them and no dice. I passed on the deal entirely as a result. AFAIK it's still in the rack there unsold.

Maybe it's time to get a corporate policy statement from them.


Willie

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Well within his rights to not accept a C&R FFL.

Even if it's 'cause it's a Wednesday or he thinks your name has too many numerological permutations.

He is however quite an ass for listing his wares in C&R section if he isn't going to honor the implications of a C&R sale.

I would formally complain to GB on that one.

Todd.
 
I questioned this seller about why he listed the gun in the C&R section.

A gun being C&R qualified means absolutely nothing to anyone other than a FFL03.

As for not being on EZCheck, there is a phone number that they can call and verify the C&R License.
 
I questioned this seller about why he listed the gun in the C&R section. No response!!

Sounds like a muppet. If it was me, I'd just walk away. Unresponsive plus not knowing the regs equals you don't get my business. To each their own though.
 
There are a number of otherwise great deals I passed on Gunbroker because the seller basically doesn't want C&R business.
Fine.
I like keeping my money.

Included in one of them was a C&R holder, who would not accept a C&R FFL himself, because
"I'm afraid of who might get the gun and I want a 4473 on file to cover my ***."

I had three words for him, the first one was GO, the third one was YOURSELF. I'll give you three guesses what the second word was, but you'll only need one.
 
Look on the bright side, your not in WA state like me. I594 made C&R license useless, as even C&R holders require a background check now, even on C&R eligible firearms.....
 
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Jackel, that was exactly what California did years ago All firearms transfers have to go through a type 1 FFL. Attempted private sales between individuals are a Felony.

Nazis!
 
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