7.62x25

[Jeff62]

I just sent an email to the Ruger CEO in which I complimented Ruger and politely asked for a 5.7 platform chambered in 7.62x25.
The web site claims he reads each message personally............

 

[barnetmill]

To my knowledge the x25 is not loaded with decent expanding bullets in the USA. It is mainly people like us on the subforum that would pay say $800-1000 for a modern gun. Right now Ruger is not having any trouble in selling the handguns they are already making. The 5.7 ruger frame could be used easily for a single stack magazine. They would to likely add a locking block of some sort for the 7.62 x25. Currently the 5.7 ruger barrel recoils a short distance due to the barrel being held by cartridge gripping the chamber and the extractor if I understand how it functions. I am not sure if that would be sufficient with the tokarev cartridge.
Bottom line there could be quite a bit of investment needed for the redesign and tooling.

 

[Jim Watson]

The 1911ish receiver that Armscor uses for .22 WRM might hold .30 Tok.

 

[TTv2]

I just sent an email to the Ruger CEO in which I complimented Ruger and politely asked for a 5.7 platform chambered in 7.62x25.
The web site claims he reads each message personally............

I've sent them two emails, both asking for .32 semi autos in the LCP. I am holding out hope it happens, but if it's been over 10 years since the LCP was released and they only just now got around to making one in .22, I have a diminishing faith they will do a .32 LCP. I even asked for a .32 NAA barrel and recoil spring kit, which would cost even less for Ruger to make, even tho I know there's no chance they will ever make that. I figured given how simple it would be it was worth asking.

To my knowledge the x25 is not loaded with decent expanding bullets in the USA. It is mainly people like us on the subforum that would pay say $800-1000 for a modern gun. Right now Ruger is not having any trouble in selling the handguns they are already making. The 5.7 ruger frame could be used easily for a single stack magazine. They would to likely add a locking block of some sort for the 7.62 x25. Currently the 5.7 ruger barrel recoils a short distance due to the barrel being held by cartridge gripping the chamber and the extractor if I understand how it functions. I am not sure if that would be sufficient with the tokarev cartridge.
Bottom line there could be quite a bit of investment needed for the redesign and tooling.

It's not like the 5.7 has a lot going for it in terms of defense ammo either. Federal and FN sell practice ammo only to retail distributors, the good stuff is LE only, then there's some small outfits making some oddball 5.7 ammo (probably in their garage) and selling it online. Not something I would want to stake my life on.

PPU's Defense Line has a 7.62x25 hollow point bullet that expands. Only one or two videos of it in gel, but it works and it costs less than 50 cents a round. Brass case too. PPU is a big company in Serbia that has been around a very long time. Their old JHP ammo was junk, but the Defense Line stuff appears to me to be legit. The 7.62x25 worked in my Zastava, although is was very flashy.

I just figure that's the way 7.62x25 is and 5.7 will probably be the same too.

 

[kBob]

Custom Defense custom made a 1911 using magazines from one of the .38 Special Wad cutter magazines.

-kBob

 

[Jim Watson]

Texas or Tennessee?
Nemmine, found it in Tennessee.
A RIA base gun with six 7.62s in a .38 Special magazine.

 

[Monac]

I honestly don’t understand why we don’t have more guns chambered in 7.62x25 or 9x18. The ammo is available. I think it’s more of a reluctance on manufacturers to produce it.

I don't know about 7.62x25, perhaps because I have little experience with it, but I agree with Prince Yamato when it comes to 9mm Makarov. It does everything 380 ACP does, only better. It really should have caught on more than it did, IMO, but I suppose that's water under the bridge now.

 

[kBob]

So one wonders if a S&W 52 (no Dash) might provide the basis for a DA/SA 7.62x25 pistol.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

I would think the best bet would be to convince one of the Turkish outfits making SIG clones to copy the Norinco (with higher quality finish) or maybe convince them a CZ or Beretta clone is worth stretching to compete with the Norinco

9x19 conversion units would not be to hard to imagine or even .38 Super or 9mm Dillon.

-kBob

 

[Jim Watson]

So one wonders if a S&W 52 (no Dash) might provide the basis for a DA/SA 7.62x25 pistol.

-kBob

Probably not. A M52 is built around the flush seated wadcutter and that is all there is magazine length for.
The Colt .38 Special magazine has room for a H&G #50 seated to the crimp groove with a front band outside the case mouth.

 

[barnetmill]

I would think the best bet would be to convince one of the Turkish outfits making SIG clones to copy the Norinco (with higher quality finish) or maybe convince them a CZ or Beretta clone is worth stretching to compete with the Norinco

9x19 conversion units would not be to hard to imagine or even .38 Super or 9mm Dillon.

-kBob

If the turks also saw a middle eastern market for such a pistol, then they might do it. Most militaries prefer the 9x19.

 

[tark]

Have you measured the pressure of both rounds? Do you have pressure measurements from current factory ammo that show there are the same? Please show your data.

The article below found the 7.62X25 had more speed than the 7.63X25, which might indicate the Mauser round had lower pressure.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/converting-a-1911-to-7-62x25-tokarev/99440

The box should not require a warning. The rule of 'only shoot the ammo in a gun chambered for that round' should apply.

I've seen warnings on hot loaded 45-70 custom ammo saying "Do not shoot in trapdoor Springfields." I've seen warnings on 38 Super ammo not to shoot it in the older colt 38 auto's. In today's "sue everybody" society, any ammo maker who makes two nearly identical rounds, with one loaded to much higher pressure than the other, is going to put a warning on the higher pressure round's box. They're gonna cover their butt....

Interesting....so higher velocity might indicate higher pressure? In WWII the soviet round achieved just under 1400 FPS from a Tokarev's barrel. The Germans loaded the same weight bullet in the Mauser round to 1575 FPS. My source for this is "Small Arms of the world" By Smith and Smith. Guess the Mauser round is a lot hotter.....or at least it used to be.

 

[fxvr5]

I've seen warnings on hot loaded 45-70 custom ammo saying "Do not shoot in trapdoor Springfields." I've seen warnings on 38 Super ammo not to shoot it in the older colt 38 auto's. In today's "sue everybody" society, any ammo maker who makes two nearly identical rounds, with one loaded to much higher pressure than the other, is going to put a warning on the higher pressure round's box. They're gonna cover their butt....

Interesting....so higher velocity might indicate higher pressure? In WWII the soviet round achieved just under 1400 FPS from a Tokarev's barrel. The Germans loaded the same weight bullet in the Mauser round to 1575 FPS. My source for this is "Small Arms of the world" By Smith and Smith. Guess the Mauser round is a lot hotter.....or at least it used to be.

You have no pressure data. You made up your pressure comment out of thin air. That's all we need to know.

 

[tark]

Well,I have the CIP pressure data that you provided in your link. According to them, the Mauser round is loaded to about 3,000 PSI LESS than the Tokarev round.

You have won that point, sir.

As to the safety aspects of shooting tok ammo in a broomhandle Mauser, I will remind everyone that C-96s were chambered in both 9X19 and 9X25 calibers. Both of those are loaded to the same pressures as the tok round. The latter featured a 128 gr. bullet @ 1360 FPS, which humbles the 38 Super. There is nothing to prevent shooting tok ammo in a C-96, provided the pistol is in good shape.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I don't know about 7.62x25, perhaps because I have little experience with it, but I agree with Prince Yamato when it comes to 9mm Makarov. It does everything 380 ACP does, only better. It really should have caught on more than it did, IMO, but I suppose that's water under the bridge now.

I have nothing but this one anecdotal story: the gunsmith at the range I most frequently patronize had said he's had to don his special suit and go to work more times in situations where a customer inadvertently included a 9X18 cartridge among the 9X19 cartridges a customer brought in among the various 9X19 cases to load and (attempt to) fire in their 9X19 handgun there.

The logic of "cartridge X does everything cartridge Y does, plus more / better" can go up from 380 ACP / 9mm Kurz to the +P version, to the 9X18, 9X19 and it's +P & +P+ versions, .38 Super Auto +P, .357 Sig - you get my drift depending on what the definition of more / better is.

I'm still impressed from a child of the Cold War days viewpoint that 7.62X39mm became as popular as it has in the USA, and I'm honestly not really surprised 7.62X25mm as well as 9X18mm haven't reached any particular popularity in the USA.

 

[TTv2]

The 7.62x39 was the .300 Blackout before the .300 Whisper ever .300 Ham'rd its way on the scene.

 

[barnetmill]

Well,I have the CIP pressure data that you provided in your link. According to them, the Mauser round is loaded to about 3,000 PSI LESS than the Tokarev round.

You have won that point, sir.

As to the safety aspects of shooting tok ammo in a broomhandle Mauser, I will remind everyone that C-96s were chambered in both 9X19 and 9X25 calibers. Both of those are loaded to the same pressures as the tok round. The latter featured a 128 gr. bullet @ 1360 FPS, which humbles the 38 Super. There is nothing to prevent shooting tok ammo in a C-96, provided the pistol is in good shape.

The pressure of the 7.62x25 varies greatly from what is intended for submachine gun to that of general pistol loading. I only heard that people recommend not using the x25 in a C96 and I assume the spanish look aikes. There are even weaker loads intended for one of the mannlicher pistol that use a similar cartridge. Remember C96 pistols are all now days very ancient and some these may have even made in chinese arsenals.

 

[tark]

Submachine gun ammo in 7.62X25 never existed. Ask jonny c. Look at his creds. Pretty sure he knows his stuff.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

Mixing bullets is easier than you think. I doubt there's a member here who hasn't had a 40 end up in his 9mm pile before, and those are way more different from each other than 9x19 and 9x18 or 7.62x25 and 7.63x25.

 

[tark]

Mixing bullets is easier than you think. I doubt there's a member here who hasn't had a 40 end up in his 9mm pile before, and those are way more different from each other than 9x19 and 9x18 or 7.62x25 and 7.63x25.

apparently the ammo companies have the same problem

I opened a box of PPU 7.63 Mauser Mauser ammo two years ago that had several 7.62X25 rounds mixed in with the 7.63 rounds. That was one of the reasons that led me to believe that the two were loaded to the same pressure. I couldn't tell the difference when I shot them.

 

[barnetmill]

Submachine gun ammo in 7.62X25 never existed. Ask jonny c. Look at his creds. Pretty sure he knows his stuff.

To say never existed is quite a statement. I have had ammo that was czech that was loaded on 8 round stripper clips meant to be used in VZ submachine guns There a was guide on the gun to hold the stripper clip.

 

[jonnyc]

The stripper and packaging is irrelevant, the ammo was made for both pistol and rifle use......read the label......nothing about SMG ONLY.

 

[barnetmill]

The stripper and packaging is irrelevant, the ammo was made for both pistol and rifle use......read the label......nothing about SMG ONLY.

I could not read the labels lol.

 

[wiscoaster]

I honestly don’t understand why we don’t have more guns chambered in 7.62x25 or 9x18.

My thoughts exactly. Fun shooting those calibers and perform as well.

 

[Robbins290]

Plus most 380’s would only need a barrel swap. Give me a glock 25 in 9x18. Lone wolf makes a 9x18 barrel for the 42.