7mm vs 30 cal elk hunting debate

Status
Not open for further replies.
there appears to be a considerable number of elk hunters that swear the 7mm and 270 cal rifles are MORE effective on elk then the 300 and 338 magnums
Click to expand...
I have shot over a dozen elk with a .30-.338 loaded up with either a 200 grain Sierra or a 180 grain Nosler Accubond. I have also shot over a dozen elk with a 7mm Rem Mag stoked up with 160 grain Accubonds or with a 168 grain Berger. In my experience, the 7mm is not more effective than the .30-338.
 
I was Elk hunting about 25 years ago on private land in Colorado owned by this old man that must have been 100years old. Our base camp was a days horseback from his house which was a good 3 hours on very bad non-paved roads from a county paved county road.

He came up to our camp for dinner one night and we started talking about hunting rifles and calibers. I had just bought a fancy shiny new 300 Weatherby mag for the hunt, there were a couple of 300 Win Mags, 4 7mm Mags, and 1 458 Win mag. And then there was this guys little brother he brought with an old 1903Springfield Sporter in 30-06 his grandfather had given him.

The old timer said the 8mm Mauser and the 30-06 were the most consistent Elk killers he had seen in 40 years of bringing hunters up there. He said it made him sick how many Elk were wounded and lost to Magnums. His theory was the shock on the Elk's body made them run and the slower moving cartridges did there work slower and without the same effect.

You guessed it, the young man with the old 1903 was the only one to make a one shot, dead right there kill that trip. The rest of us took more than one shot and/or a lot of tracking to find ours. That kid had more fun paying us back for all the teasing we gave him for his rifle.

Had a similar experience in Africa with a Custom 340 Weatherby Mag. A few days into the trip the guide dropped the rifle and screwed up a very expensive scope. Backup rifle was a 30-06 and I was impressed what it could do to those plains game animals.

30-06 is my go to hunting cartridge from now on.
 
I've used an '06 for all my big game for over 40 years. Not many of those years I didn't take an elk. I've never owned any other big game rifle. Lots of varmint calibers, rimfires.
 
FSJeeper said:
The old timer said the 8mm Mauser and the 30-06 were the most consistent Elk killers he had seen in 40 years of bringing hunters up there. He said it made him sick how many Elk were wounded and lost to Magnums. His theory was the shock on the Elk's body made them run and the slower moving cartridges did there work slower and without the same effect.

.
Click to expand...
I have another theory about that, the man hunting big game with a 30-30 knows his range is limited he is not trying to take as long a shot as he can, rather he is focused on getting as close to his game as possible without spooking it, and he knows he cannot shoot through it lengthwise so he is waiting for a clean shot. The psychology and approach of a hunter using a moderate cartridge can be quite different then one using a big bellowing magnum, I know a recent study was done in Europe that showed hunters using the rather mild 6.5x55 had just as high a recovery rate as those using the beastly 338 Win Mag, I think the same principal applies, and I think I might have answered my own question as well, I would think the perception of a hunter using a 270 Win would be quite different then the hunter toting a 338 Ultra Mag.
 
Kachok I think you're last sentence nailed it. Every elk hunter thinks the rifle he's carrying is the greatest elk medicine around, altho that is subject to change if said hunter turns into a rifle looney of sorts.:cool:
 
Hunting is something we do for fun. I firmly believe that anyone should use the gun they enjoy using. Anything from a 243 on up to as big as you want to carrry will kill elk just fine. If you enjoy a 338 magnum, then use it. Others prefer a lever in 30-30 or 45-70. Don't let anyone tell you a 243 won't drop elk, they will. If you enjoy using archery, handguns or blackpowder, use it, it works.

The problem is when peolple ask "what is best". There is no clear answer. The real question is "need". Years ago there was a true need for larger caliber guns because smaller calibers would not give adequate penetration on truly large game. Bullet technology has changed all the rules and some guys are still living in the 19th century.

Most all of us are way overgunned today. At one time a 30-06 or 270 were considered midddle of the road. With todays modern bullets a 223 is darn near the perfect deer/antelope round. The 243, 260, and 6.5mm rounds are the new middle of the road rounds suitable for any game in North America including moose and elk. Even suitable for large bear, but on the light side. A 7-08 or 308 are the new heavyweights suitable for most anything. A 30-06 is overkill for anything but the large bears. That is with modern, premium bullet technology. If you are still using old school, pre-1940's bullet technology, then there is a need to stay with the larger caliber guns.

There is no longer any real "NEED" for anything in NA larger than 7mm or .30 cal. Even the magnums only offer greater range, not close range killing power. When it comes to performance on game it is really a small step from 308 up to 338 magnum. To argue about anything in between those 2 is really splitting hairs.

All of them work. It comes down to what you want. All have advantages and disadvantages. It comes down to which advanages or disadvantages are more important to you, and fit your style of hunting best.
 
I say shoot the largest cartridge to the point recoil is on your mind when you make a hunting shot. Recoil should be the last thing you are thinking about when you pull the trigger on an elk. I don't see the point in shooting something smaller than you can handle comfortably just to be in style. The whole meat damage deal is overblown. If you destroy much meat you made a bad or unwise shot.
 
It always seems that the answer to these discussions boils down to Magnum = trash, unskilled, newb that shouldn't have even been sold a license compared to the real man hunter who used the more "traditional" or smaller cartridge that requires great ninja hunter skills.
Neither is true and the anecdotal stories usually have more bias than fact.
Magnum is simply a name and generally has no more to do with shootability then what the shooter might perceive. I have shot a few old lever actions with steel butt plates that were no better to shoot than any 300 mags and while I'm not an old milsurp connoisseur I am told that some of the old one pack a pretty good wallop.
I can't say that all bullets are created equal but but I also don't believe that any are magic, call me a follower of Elmer Keith but big heavy bullets traveling fast seems to outweigh small light bullets traveling fast with few exceptions.
I'm not saying that we all need to be using 250 gr. in .33 cal to shoot elk but IMO I do want at least 150gr in a .27 cal in general.
That said I personally have shot and seen shot, dozens of elk with everything from 270 - big Weatherbys and if the placement is right the animal will go down.
 
Oh don't get me wrong not dissing the performance of magnums, a good friend of mine hunted elk for as long as I have been alive and he uses a 300 Win Mag since many of his shots are longer then what he is comfortable taking with his 30-06 in the open country he hunts. All I am saying is having a couple thousand more foot pounds of KE is no substitute for good marksmanship and hunting practices, I think just about anybody who has hunted before would agree with that. Given identical shot placement and range I don't doubt that a 300gr 338 Lapua makes a whole bunch more damage then my 270, but one thing I have seen deer hunting is that weather you are using a 243 or a 300 Win Mag the vitals only get so destroyed, the 300 might have a few inches more remote wounding but the lowly 243 still does the trick remarkably well when you place it right. I don't know about elk but completely destroying the lungs on whitetail is pretty easy even with my little 6.5mm
 
I have no disagreement, my rant is with what usually amounts to bashing of hunters because they do and believe just as your friend. I have used many guns and cartridges to take big game and am no novice when it comes to shooting but to hear many I have some magnumitis disease that only afflicts newbs who read more than they shoot.
There are of course many exceptions to what I believe to be my baseline choice of elk calibers, I am no fan of the 308 based family of cartridges for big elk in open country and would say that the 6.5 falls just a little short for me on bullet weight even in a Mag. That is just my opinion and includes some personal experience as well which is what should drive all of our individual choices to some extent.
I have seen some of the most spectacular reactions of elk from a 280 Rem with 154 gr Hornady Hand loads so I won't disparage someone elses choice so long as they behave in an ethical manner which opens up a whole other can of worms.
 
The 7mm "magnum" has about the same recoil force as a .30-06. It will also kill anything the .30-06 will kill and carries more energy farther away. That's why I bought one, that and I was thinkin' .280, but figured I could download the 7, couldn't upload the .280. Ya see, SERIOUS riflemen handload.:neener:
 
I hate to say it but the recoil of my 7mm Rem Mags was considerably higher then my 06 even with 180gr max loads, and my 06 weighs a full 1.2lbs less. I have owned three 7mm Rem Mags and none of them was fun to shoot after a box of 160gr, I still enjoy shooting my 06 even after shooting for three hours, heck my 5' tall sister in law enjoys shooting my 06, only one person ever wanted to shoot my 7mm Rem Mag more then once :D
So yeah I would say there is a noticeable difference in recoil in the real world despite what the charts say, the 7mm RM does not push any more but it is snappy and abrupt recoil, not even adding a limb saver made it fun to shoot but it does make for one hellava hunting cartridge.
 
After benching 12 gauge 3" 1 ounce slugs, I can shoot ANYthing. :D But, really, I don't find 7 mag all that much a problem even off the bench, though I do wear my past recoil shield when I'm playing with it. :D

Stock fit, shotgun OR rifle, has a lot to do with felt recoil. I have a CVA Plainsman 50 caliber rifle that beats the living bejesus out of me, no fun at all even with reduced loads and patched RB EVEN with a slip on recoil pad. For one, it beats my cheek bone up. My light weight Cabela's Hawken Hunter Carbine isn't a problem firing 90 grains Pyrodex and a 385 grain Hornady Great Plains Minie. Both rifles are about 6 lbs. The difference is stock fit.

If you calculate recoil force, the 7 mag might be a little heavier than the .30-06, sure, but not enough to write home about. Just googling it, I came up with the following table. Looks like the recoil energy of a 7 mag 150 grain bullet at 3100 fps from an 8.5 lb rifle is 19.2 ft lbs. The recoil of a 150 grain .30-06 at 2910 fps from an 8 lb rifle is 17.6 ft lbs. For me, the difference is minimal. Stock fit, however, is a variable in PERCEIVED recoil.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Oh, as regards to "snappy", the recoil velocity calculated for that 7 mag load is 12.1 fps vs 11.9 fps for the .30-06. I don't think that's much difference, myself.
 
Last edited:
I don't know about elk but completely destroying the lungs on whitetail is pretty easy even with my little 6.5mm
Click to expand...

Elk lungs are huge, and there's not a lot that will destroy them like happens on deer and antelope. But you poke a hole in them and air and blood start going where it's not supposed to and they die somewhere before they cover much over the next 200 yds, and sometimes less.
 
Maybe none of my 7 Mags fit me right, but they were no fun at all to shoot without the sissy pad, when I bought my first one I did not know a darn thing about rifles, that stupid thing left everyone who ever touched the trigger on it black and blue, even my crazy magnum buddy who shoots tiny deer with a 300 WM had a visible bruise four weeks afterward, any time I bring up that rifle he shakes his head and cannot believe a 7mm hurt him. Maybe it is a psychological thing after owning that old Winchester, I am not recoil shy at all, I play with 3" magnum slugs in a light Maverick 88 for fun but that 7mm hurt!
 
Next year I was going to use my 35 Remington, but thanks to this thread I now know that Interlock would just bounce off and bruise the meat thats running away from me :mad:
 
I am still kind of old school. If you can handle a "magnum" by all means use what you are comfortable with. Where I hunt, elk are easy to find and I often shoot a bull and one or two cows each year. The same goes for my brother. We shoot a lot of elk.

As I got older, I lost my desire to shoot the larger magnum cartridges. Fact is, I used the magnums because I wanted good terminal performance at what most would considered long distance. Most of the elk I shoot are in wide open country.

I no longer own a "magnum". My primary hunting rifle is a 6.5x284 launching a 140 grain Berger bullet. I have only shot 4-5 elk with that load, and so far it works, but it doesn't seem like the cartridge has as much smack down at long yardage as my old magnums. That's just my perception and it might be different than reality. But physics is physics.

Last fall I killed a large cow elk at a moderate distance with a 7mm-08 shooting a 120 Barnes Tipped Triple Shock Bullet. Hit her through both lungs and she just ran a little way and tipped over. I also shot a couple of deer with the 7mm-08 and they were DRT. On the surface, one would think the 7mm-08 with a 120 tipped trip shock is a killing machine (and it is).

On the flip side, my brother and I were on a herd of 200+ elk at 400 yards last fall. He had his 7mm-08 loaded with 140 grain Accubonds in his hands because it is light to carry. His 7mm Rem Mag was back at the vehicle. He decided to pass because he didn't have enough gun. I killed the elk DRT with a shot into the boiler room from my 6.5x284. Frankly, I think his 7mm-08 would have done the job, but it was his decision and I won't fault anyone for passing on a shot.

I am not an advocate of shooting critters with minimal calibers, but I too think a lot of folks are over gunned assuming they use quality modern bullets. But, I still feel a .243 is on the light side for elk, and I also have a tough time coming to grips with the notion that a .223 (especially out of a 16 inch AR) is suitable for big mule deer and up.
 
I too get angry when some internet expert says that anyone shooting a magnum is nothing but a harry ape and that 100s of animals are wounded every year by idiots that cant handle them. Id bet a dime to a dollar that the same guy that missed or wounded his elk with a 7mag would have done the same with a 270. Bottom line is theres not much differnce in recoil between them. Most 7mags weight a lb or two more then the typical 270 and it about equalizes the recoil differnce between them and any differnce left is between your ears not on your shoulder. Sure a mag isnt the right gun for a beginner or someone that shoots 5 rounds a year to sight in his gun and goes hunting but id bet most here are pretty avid shooters and surely wouldnt have a problem mastering even a 300 mag. Ive got 3 grandsons between 9 and 14 and all three of them will jump at the chance to shoot my 7mag off the bench. The cutoff for them where it gets unconfortable is when they shoot the 300 mags. and the older one shoots them all including my 300 ultra mag and ive yet to see anything but a smile on his face when hes doing it. thing is they were never told recoil hurts. Even a 300 mag really doesnt physicaly hurt you. It may startle you a bit but ive never been bruised by one. I wonder how many of the guys that preach overkill with them are out the following weekend shoot 12 guage shotguns. Id bet very few of the proponants of the 243 ect are out with 410s hunting birds because the 12 guage kicks a bit.
 
I'm with you Lloyd. I have hunted for close to fifty years with a lot of hunters. A man who is a good shot with one rifle is a good shot with any of them and if a cartridge is too much for him to shoot proficiently it only takes him a couple of shots to figure that out.
I have seen new hunters nail elk with 7 and 300 magnums and I have seen new hunters miss elk at easy ranges with 308's and 270's.

Could be that recoil is a better excuse than your nerves got to you or you just can't shoot.
 
Id bet very few of the proponants of the 243 ect are out with 410s hunting birds because the 12 guage kicks a bit.
Click to expand...

THAT is something I always think about in these magnum bashing discussions. I hunt geese with 3.5" 10 gauge steel T shot. On a good day, lots of geese, I'll shoot a box up in a morning. The sore shoulder the next day just reminds me of good times. :D I even see GIRLS welding 10s and 12 gauge 3.5s in the field occasionally. Those same girls could probably handle a .338, let alone a 7 mag. :D

You ain't gotta be macho, just don't be scared. It's all about breath and trigger control. Forget about the recoil, it ain't near as bad as what the elk gets. :D

I only have one magnum, a 7. I never figured I really needed anything else, bought it to go to New Mexico with, but only ever used it on deer, mulies and whitetail. I don't go west much anymore, stuck in the woods shooting deer and hogs and in the brush and oak motts. Max range for me now days is 150 yards, so my smaller rifles, if I use a rifle, work just fine. I haven't popped a cap on that 7 in a while, but I'd pick it up again if I had an opportunity to hunt elk or maybe nilgai. Actually, it might be a little light for nilgai, but I think it'd work fine with 160 partitions.
 
:confused: I don't really see any "magnum bashing" going on here, except for some self inflicted?
I always get a chuckle over these threads, and wonder just how in the world did we get by killing elk with inadequate rounds like the 250,257,7x57,30-30, 300 savage and 30-40 , 270 and 3006, and then came the 243 and other 308 family cartridges, and families filled freezers every year, most folks shot less than a box of cartridges for the entire year, and some used the same box for several years.
But now we see a constant battering of have to have a magnum with premium bullets , elsetwize said person is just a slob hunter trying to pull stunts..:banghead:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
Elk Hunting
2
Replies
39
Views
2K
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
F
H
  • Locked
Elk hunting the hard way
Replies
2
Views
652
rick_reno
R
Taylor W. Bastianelli
  • Locked
Elk hunters in western WA
Replies
11
Views
792
Taylor W. Bastianelli
Taylor W. Bastianelli
E
  • Locked
How many licks to get to the center of an Elk?
2 3
Replies
70
Views
6K
H&Hhunter
H&Hhunter
Lennyjoe
  • Locked
06 or 7MM Mag?
Replies
6
Views
660
HankB
H
Back
Top