Elk Hunting

[a-sheepdog]

I recenlty acquired some land in Montana and plan on Elk hunting when the opportunity arises. I currently have a 300 Win Mag that I shoot pretty good with. Everywhere that I read, everyone touts the 338 Win Mag as the "ultimate" elk medicine. Anyone with elk hunting experience see any problem with a 300 WM ? I am not really interested in the extra recoil of the 338, but if that is what is needed, I will go ahead and start saving and just practice with it until I am proficient. I do understand that shot placement is key and I am an ethical hunter.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

The 300wm is MORE than enough to cleanly take an elk. If the lowly old 30/30 can, and has, do it then why would the .300wm have a problem? While the .338wm and the new .338fed are fantastic cartridges they really, in all reality, are not needed for elk. Your .300wm is fine and dandy. Just, as you already said, put it where it counts.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I've killed elk with a 280 and 160 grain Nosler Partitions and a 30/06 with 165 grain Nosler partitions. Guys I hunt with have killed them with a 270 Win.

So, although a 338 Win will work great I certainly wouldn't think I needed anything that big, particularly if you can't shoot it as well as a cartridge with less recoil.

 

[waffentomas]

I use a .308 and would take a 300 yard shot with it. Your .300 is a great cartridge, save your $$.

 

[a-sheepdog]

Thanks guys, you reinforced what I already believed was sufficient for Elk and probably moose as well. I appreciate the input.

 

[GJgo]

Magnums only buy you range, really. And, the limiting factor for range is really the shooter's ability. If you use a premium bonded bullet in the 180gr class for lead, or a bit lighter for a TSX / GMX, and put it in the vitals, you'll be fine. My friend kills an elk every year with a 7mm-08 w/ a 140gr TSX to the vitals, just only takes shots within 250 yds or so. Shot placement is king.

 

[joshk-k]

I shot one with a .30-06 with 180 gr. bullets and it fell right there.

 

[bucktail]

I took an elk with a 30-06 this year, as did the guy I was with. First for me, but he's taken several with his. I used the 180 grain nosler partition; he uses the 190 grain hornady interlock. I wouldn't fret using the 300 WM.

 

[ChefJeff1]

I'm 3 for 3 with my 270. 300wm, although I have never shot one is plenty. Save your money and spend your time training, both balistically and physically.

 

[ricebasher302]

Elk are notoriously tough critters, but a shot to the vitals is a kill shot regardless of caliber. The .300 Mag is perfectly adequate. Practice, practice, practice. Elk fever can be worse than buck fever. I would know....

 

[dougwx12]

300 is great, unless you're looking for an excuse to get another rifle (I used a .270 on my last elk.)

 

[a-sheepdog]

I think that if I buy another rifle I will be in the dog house with the little woman. I am good with the 300wm out to 300 yards. I need to find a range with a longer distance to shoot so that I can practice for further distance on my shots.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I think that if I buy another rifle I will be in the dog house with the little woman. I am good with the 300wm out to 300 yards. I need to find a range with a longer distance to shoot so that I can practice for further distance on my shots.

Isn't it funny how when it comes to money the "little woman" aint so darn little!

As far as your range statement, past 350 yards on game is a little more tricky than punching paper. Those long legs on an elk move it ridiculously fast in a short amount of time. Like the time from your pressure on the trigger to the time it took the bullet to impact. In other words, from a nice lung shot to a bad gut shot. Limit yourself to 300-350yards and leave the "macho sniper" mentality at the house on the internet where it belongs. There is nothing worse than seeing wounded game suffering a slow agonizing death. And I hate having to waste a tag on an animal that more than likely has a serious wound infection and most of the meat will be inedible but I will in a heartbeat to drop a wounded animal to end it's suffering. Done it many times and I am sure with all these wanna-be snipers out there I will have to do it more than once again.

 

[X-Rap]

And I hate having to waste a tag on an animal that more than likely has a serious wound infection and most of the meat will be inedible but I will in a heartbeat to drop a wounded animal to end it's suffering. Done it many times and I am sure with all these wanna-be snipers out there I will have to do it more than once again.

I'm calling BS on that one, how many times and how do you know it was some "macho sniper". Statements like that are right out of the anti's handbook.
I have hunted big game for 30 yrs and have never had to knowingly dispatch an animal in the condition you describe as doing many times. I think I could take a quick poll of my friends and family and come up with a couple centuries of hunting with the same results. Comments like that leave to much to speculation and are far from high road and make you look like a fraud.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Well X-Rap you are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I. In over 40 years of hunting white tail and Elk I have so far taken 11 deer that were wounded and 7 Elk. All of which were in seriously bad shape from shots that either didn't penetrate the shoulder or bad placement in the "no mans land" and had become infected. Some were from Archery wounds, 2 of the deer and 1 of the Elk, The rest were from firearm. This is by far no "anti" statement in any way shape form or fashion. It is from an ETHICAL standpoint. Very few out there can, in all reality, reliably take game at ranges past 350 yards. Reading wind, movement of the animal, actual ability, range estimation, and many other factors come to play. There is little to be left to "speculation" as you put it. It is very well documented by MANY actual HUNTERS. All these handy dandy magnum cartridges out there have given a lot of people the mentality that they can now go out there and crack game at 500 yards easily. Companies like Christensen Rifles and such exploit this in selling videos that claim to be able to make you a long range shooter just by buying their rifle and watching their video.

Before you accuse a person of BS there X-Rap think about your own experiences with long range and such. Just because YOU haven't ran across injured animals doesn't mean others have not. There are many out there that actually wouldn't use their tag and would just let the animal go off and suffer. I personally am not one of those people.

 

[X-Rap]

Well for me I can sincerely say that I have never seen an animal in the condition you describe for me to dispatch and you have taken 18. Were they all ruined because I can say that I have taken some very healthy animals that had wounds but they were encapsulated and the meat was fine. Of those 15 how do you know distance or magnumitis had anything to do with their wounds? Could it have been poor bullets, bad angles, anemic calibers? My calling BS has more to do with that than how many wounded animals you have shot although 18 still seems to be a high number. Lets let our hunting brothers chime in shall we?

 

[X-Rap]

As for your statement on ethics and yardage, I have never lost an animal shot at 350 yds and over, ever. Except maybe a prarie dog, do they count?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Thanks guys, you reinforced what I already believed was sufficient for Elk and probably moose as well.

Heck, a .30-06 is sufficient.
A .300 Win Mag is downright perfect IMO.
Usually, I'm the one saying, "Hey, if he wants a bigger round leave him alone." However, if anyone says a .300 is marginal for elk they're crazy. Now if you want a .338 then by all means, go for it. You certainly don't NEED it though.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Basically X-Rap, in the past, they were certainly few and far between that I would encounter this problem. But in the past 15 or so years it has increased 10 fold. Sort of coinciding with the internet (information age) and the explosion of all the "magnum" "long range" "sniper" craze. I have said this 100 times at least in the past year, Just because your rifle can do it does not mean YOU can and it holds VERY true. Do you practice diligently at long range X-Rap? Do you know your equipment inside and out? Do you know all of your ballistic variables and all of your data required for a shot past 350 yards with the particular rifle that you have in the field? Do you practice IN THE FIELD? Have you studied the body language of the particular game which you are hunting and are you adept at reading it so that you know when that animal is completely relaxed and be assure that it will not take that dreaded step right when you squeeze? If you can answer yes HONESTLY to all of those questions then you are in the LOWER percentile of the population of hunters and you would be ok to hunt at longer ranges (within acceptable limits of your weapon of course) But VERY few could honestly answer yes to that battery of questions and you know it. I am in NO way an Anti but I guess in a way I am an advocate for animals. I hate to see any creature suffer needlessly. Hell I bow hunt and hate the longer period of time it generally takes for an animal to go down from a clean ethical shot from a bow. Guess I am a soft touch when it comes to that. Weird coming from someone that has hunted since he could barely walk I know. I love animals but I love meat too! In a fight between my heart and my stomach, stomach wins hands down!

As far as your question about the meat spoilage, Most of the deer had extreme shoulder wounds or a leg blown mostly off (common "miss" from poor range estimation from the "sniper mentality") and had a LOT of infection in the surrounding areas. That can, from what I have been taught, have some pretty rough effect on the meat because they could have some infection in the blood stream leading to tainted meat. May be old wives tales there but I wouldn't risk it myself. The Elk were mostly no mans land shots that had punctured intestines so you know that meat was pretty much ruined. Poor things were dead on their feet pretty much. 2 of them had a shoulder blown out and I recovered a .308cal bullet from one and a .284cal from the other. Both were limping of course and more than likely would not have made it through winter. All Elk were cows by the way which makes that class a little strange. 8 of the Deer were bucks with only 3 does.

Hopefully this has satisfied your curiosity to this and MAYBE you will think a little harder when advocating long range shooting of game.

 

[X-Rap]

I will take you at your word as to the number of animals you have dispatched but also still contest your claim that they were long shots based on wound type and type of bullet recovered.
Yes I know how my gun shoots at the ranges I will shoot, every hunter has to deal with limitations be they optics, stocks, their own conditioning and acclamation, ability to know distance, ammo.
The examples you state could have been done with cartridges that were inferior to even 300 yds if they were down loaded for reduced recoil or been shot with bullets/calibers not best suited for big game.
I strongly disagree with those who wish to hunt elk with calibers below 7mm 150gr bullets under 2700 fps mv. for the same reasons you deplore shooting past 350yds. Distance aside the 7mag and 300mag are very good choices for distance under 350 and there is no such thing as to dead.
We will need to agree to disagree on some points but we do agree that a hunter must practice and know his weapon as well as quarry.

 

[788Ham]

X-Rap, Freedom,

I'm not choosing sides here, but from my 45 years of hunting, starting at age 14, I've seen a lot of hunters in the field totally over gunned! Hunting with a 300 WM, a 300 RUM, most of these hunters "think" they need one of these to put an elk down, so, with that thought in mind, they "try" to take one at 300 to 350 yds, just because someone else did. IMHO, this is where a lot of the wounded animals come from, the hunter is scared to death of the recoil of his weapon, so, consequently, the animal suffers a gut shot wound, or is hit in the hindquarters and being left to die a horrid death. Hunting is a sport to procure meat for the freezer, not to see how severely you can blow his guts up into the pine needles with a weapon you're scared to death to shoot, but won't admit it! Just because a 300 WM can shoot 300 yards to hit an elk, does that mean you have to try? Possibly your hunting skills are wanting, need to learn how to sneak closer to improve your chances. Again, just MHO.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

788Ham,

Agreed. But there are times that I would have to agree with X-Rap that you just CANT get any closer than a 400 yard shot. I have hunted Wyoming and Montana both and know that there are places that I don't care what you do, you are NOT going to get closer. My particular beef is with those that KNOWINGLY go to these type of hunts and THINK they can make those type of shots because they have the latest greatest best advertised super magnum out there. It just aint so. I, in the past, have made those long range shots and I was lucky enough to cleanly and ethically take my elk and mule deer with no problems. But I have also had a rifle in my hands since I was just past 3 and extremely well trained. I practiced diligently and studied my quarry with a passion that is unmatched. My main problem is with all the guys out there falling for the Magnum rage thinking just because the weapon is capable of it that THEY are. You are definitely correct about the flinch factor as well. I have watched some guys at the range beating themselves to death with weapons that were way beyond their abilities and tolerances of recoil and would just lower my head knowing that these are the same guys that would be going out there shooting at deer with these rifles that they were half way afraid of. I guess the moral of this long winded reply is, know your limits and lose the sniper mentality.

X-Rap I wholeheartedly agree with you on the 7mm Mag and 300wm are fine examples of Elk cartridges. I personally wouldn't shoot the 300wm past 400 yards on game because of my OWN limitations not the weapons. Since I moved to this God Awful state I don't make it to the range as often as I would like and there are none around me anyway that have over 200 yard ranges. I most definitely practice what I preach! (Always wanted to be able to use that line!!)

 

[X-Rap]

How do you fellas feel about guys that go to the field with a antique cartridge like the 45-70 or 30-30 with iron sites and shoot animals at 150 or so yds? Same question on 50/54 cal ML or SG slug at 150 or 200?

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

How do you fellas feel about guys that go to the field with a antique cartridge like the 45-70 or 30-30 with iron sites and shoot animals at 150 or so yds? Same question on 50/54 cal ML or SG slug at 150 or 200?

Well for deer, as far as lethality goes, that is about the maximum effective range of them all really with open sites. I personally wouldn't go past 100 with irons simply because my old eyes just aren't what they used to be but many are fine at those ranges with them. With these new in-line ML's and Rifled slug barrels them buggers are pretty darn sporty accurate out to those ranges. Both my ML and SG are topped with 2.5-7 Nikon's and with 150g Pyro packed under a 50cal 300g TC sabot in the long pipe I would not in the least bit be afraid of a 200 yard poke with it on deer. 150 max range for me on my 12ga with Lightfield 2 3/4 slugs.

Elk on the other hand I would shorten those up a bit for penetration. The 30/30 or 45/70 scoped I wouldn't be afraid of 150 yard shots at all with the 30/30 and 200 with the 45/70 as long as I had a really good clean broad side shot to the lungs. If I had to penetrate shoulder I wouldn't go past 150 just for safety's sake and be assured of lethal penetration.

 

[788Ham]

Freedom,

I concur with what you've said, the fact about them flinching, I saw that this last year during sight-in at the range. A guy about 30 had a .300 WM, shot about 3 rounds, got up, rubbing his shoulder, walked some, came back and shot 4 more. His pardner shot it once, then they had a big conflab...... about 10 minutes later they left, leaving behind 12 rounds of the ammo on the bench! I don't think he took it hunting, not if he left $50 worth of ammo at the bench. This was my point in being over gunned! Thanks for your post.