How many licks to get to the center of an Elk?

[Eleanor416Rigby]

I just read and watched a guy shoot an elk in the neighborhood of 70 yds 3 times in the shoulder area with 7mm magnum 160 gr. Nosler Accubond. The elk walked away and lay down to bleed out. Hunter claimed another elk at about 30 yds took two in the shoulder area and one in the neck area from a .300 win mag 180 gr. Nosler Accubond. Question for elk hunters: do you consider it "normal" to have to shoot one multiple times at close range to get it down? Clearly, the hunter wasn't under-gunned, so it had to be poor shot placement or poor bullet construction, right?

I have never shot anything the size of an elk; my granddad killed 17 of them in Colorado and usually with one shot in the lung area from a 25-06 or .300 win mag. (He reloaded, and I don't know what bullets he was using in the 1950s and 60s.) What gives?

 

[OilyPablo]

It's possible flesh only shots I suppose.

 

[macgrumpy]

He's aiming for the wrong spot. The kill shot for an elk is behind the shoulder above what you might refer to as the elbow. The heart is in the area of that elbow and the lungs are above that. A neck shot is tricky because the spine is lower than most people realize but still above the centerline of the neck, most often a missed neck shot will simply pass through flesh or the esophagus. I took my elk this year with a 168gr .308 and hit it in the heart, it dropped in its tracks like a rock.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Anyone who lives in Elk coutry knows they are tough critters. The shot can be placed properly and the caliber adequate. Not every kill on any game is accomplished with a single shot. The hunter who can place a second or third successful round is skillful.

 

[Eleanor416Rigby]

I'm a little surprised that a guy who holds himself out to be a pro seems to think 6 shots in a row on two elk without getting one to go down quickly is normal. I get that *sometimes* it can take more than one shot, even with sufficient caliber for the animal involved, but regularly punching multiple holes in animals that still don't go down seems a little off.

 

[entropy]

<Wise owl voice> Let's find out. One, Two, Three! [Krunch!] Three! </Wise owl voice>

Anyone who lives in Elk coutry knows they are tough critters. The shot can be placed properly and the caliber adequate. Not every kill on any game is accomplished with a single shot. The hunter who can place a second or third successful round is skillful.

It took my Dad's moose 5 in the lungs before it dropped. Every shot, from the first to the fifth was a killing shot. It just took the moose some time to realize it......that and/or my Dad was really impatient!
Actually, he had to unload, then reload his gun as he followed the moose across a road between the third and fourth shot.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Anyone who lives in Elk coutry knows they are tough critters. The shot can be placed properly and the caliber adequate. Not every kill on any game is accomplished with a single shot. The hunter who can place a second or third successful round is skillful.

This is exactly correct. I'm sure if the guy in the OP would have given the elk enough time it would have died after the first shot. But big critters like elk can take some time to bleed out and die even with good vital hits. I've had them go both ways. Sometimes they flop right over, sometimes they take way longer than they should. I've seen a double lung shot bull elk travel for over 500 yards. He'd been shot with a .300 Wthby and a 200 gr partition. The last one I shot with a .30-06 just flipped over and hit the ground with almost the same shot placement. That doesn't mean the .300 is a lesser killer than 06 it just means that some critters take longer than others to go to the light after being well hit.

PS

I always put in another round or two given the opportunity.

 

[macgrumpy]

Most people consider a heart/ lung area impact a killing shot, I agree but that doesn't mean that an elk will drop without taking a step. It's very common for an elk to travel 50 to 100 yards before dropping even with a double lung shot. Unless you make a heart or perfect spine shot they always walk some distance. My heart shot was actually the third shot, my first two went wild (my shots were at 110 yards with open sights, uphill and through heavy brush) but the third shot was a perfect heart shot. The heart opened up like it had been cleaved open with a hatchet and the elk simply bled to death instantly, the entire contents of the heart dumped out upon bullet impact and that dropped his blood pressure so quickly that he simply passed out and dropped to the ground, he actually took another couple of minutes to expire.

But like I said before, your kill shot is not the shoulder, it's a little to the rear of the shoulder and down to about 1/3 the way up from the bottom of the chest. A shoulder shot won't hit anything important unless you get lucky and hit an artery.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Most people consider a heart/ lung area impact a killing shot, I agree but that doesn't mean that an elk will drop without taking a step.

But like I said before, your kill shot is not the shoulder, it's a little to the rear of the shoulder and down to about 1/3 the way up from the bottom of the chest. A shoulder shot won't hit anything important unless you get lucky and hit an artery.

macgrumpy,

It is 100% fact that a heart/lung shot is going to be fatal, the only variable is how long it takes the critter to expire.

Now for point number 2. I'm guessing that you and I are simply disagreeing what a "shoulder shot" is. Both of these deer were shot last week by myself using a .30/06 with 180 gr Barnes TSX bullet the first was at about 180 yards the second at about 230. In both cases the point of the knife blade is almost touching the entry hole.

As you can see in the first deer the heart is ripped in half with the top of the heart completely destroyed. As you can also see the bullet entered just inside the point of the shoulder. The deer was quartering towards me at the shot. This deer ran nearly 200 yards before dropping.
The second deer was also shot in the point of the shoulder. She was slightly quartered to me. As you can also see the aorta and lungs are completely destroyed. This deer only went about 15 yards.

A shoulder shot is as deadly as it comes. It simply depends on where in the shoulder we are talking about.

 

[Eleanor416Rigby]

Thanks to all for the input. I used the term "shoulder area" in the first post because I didn't have the chance to examine the animal afterward, as we all usually do with our own kills. I'm aware of the vital area on an elk, but I couldn't determine exactly where those bullets hit, so I used the term "shoulder area." The shots may or may not have actually hit the shoulder. Still, I think 6 consecutive rounds in two elk at close range is too many not to put one down; either shot placement or bullet construction must have wrong.

 

[wankerjake]

Elk are tough and they carry bullets well. They die just the same as anything but they are capable of carrying a fatal bullet and moving with it further than you'd expect them to. Shoot until they fall down. "Shoulder area" can mean a few things, and some of those possibilities are not fatal shots or anchoring shots. Another possibility, maybe out of 6 hits only two were as good as they made them all out to be.

I don't ever hit heart unless I shoot thru the front leg or shoulder. Behind the leg and I only get lungs. Last two shots on big game animals, the deer went straight down and the elk acted like nothing happened and then ran about 50 yards:

 

[X-Rap]

We probably don't emphasize multiple dimensions in game animals as much as in defensive shooting but it is every bit as important. It's what's behind that shoulder and the angle that counts.
I have only had 2 elk travel over 50 yds, one shot with a 308 the other a 50cal. ML. I know it's just me but I quit carrying a 308 for elk years ago and now ad ML's to that list.
I don't use anything smaller than a 280 but have been pleased with multiple kills with that and a number of larger calibers.

 

[macgrumpy]

I don't see where I was disagreeing but evidently you guys seem to think you should lecture me so I'll let your childish responses go unanswered other than to say that elk and deer aren't the same, elk have no shoulder joint so a hit in the shoulder is different than a hit in a deer's shoulder and the heart on an elk is lower than the heart on a deer.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I don't see where I was disagreeing but evidently you guys seem to think you should lecture me so I'll let your childish responses go unanswered other than to say that elk and deer aren't the same, elk have no shoulder joint so a hit in the shoulder is different than a hit in a deer's shoulder and the heart on an elk is lower than the heart on a deer.

Jake just showed you that your impression of where an elks heart lays is incorrect. The heart of any deer species lays between the shoulder muscles and is approximately the size of the triangle of muscle that it lays under. Your statement regarding the difference between the bone structure in a deer and and an elk is incorrect. The shoulder bone structure is exactly the same between an elk and a deer.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My advice for elk is, "break bone."

When I can, I hold a bit forward of where you would hold on a deer, and shoot to break the shoulder. Once you do that, he's anchored. An elk that isn't anchored can go places you don't want to go, and definitely don't want to have to pack a 5-600 lb carcass out of.

Practice working the bolt fast, and if there's anything to shoot out after you fire the first shot, fire another one!

 

[JRWhit]

At that distance bullet construction could have been a hindrance. At the higher velocity of the magnums close range shots can result in bullet failure and total fragmentation resulting in a shallow wound and slow kills. Otherwise known as bullet blow up.
Or as others have said, sometime they run further than others. I've seen many a deer make it 100 yds or better without a heart left to pump blood.

 

[wankerjake]

Wish I had more behind the leg pics. Here is a recent one, the spot where there is most blood, low and behind the leg, is an entrance AND an exit.


The other side looked like this, one entrance and one exit. So both wound channels were right behind the shoulder there. The heart was NOT hit on this animal. Elk made it a total of about 20 yards, was on his feet maybe 30 seconds after the first shot. He did not appear to be hit, took the whole 180gr Accubond at about 60 yards. Followup shot was at 75 yards no more than 30 seconds later (probably more like 15 seconds). He stumbled and fell after the second. No bones broken (except ribs of course). Tough critters for sure. But not bulletproof


**All animals pictured including previous were killed with 180gr Accubonds from a 300 WSM.

 

[jmr40]

I seriously doubt bullet failure, although it is possible. Accubonds hold up very well even at magnum speeds. A softer bullet at those speeds is simply asking the bullet to do something it wasn't deigned to do. That ain't the case with the Accubond.

Doesn't really sound like poor placement either. You'll get differing opinions and a lot of guys use both methods.

Sometimes game animals are just more resilient than we give them credit for, not just elk. I've seen deer and all manner of game take shots that killed them. The problem is that unless you hit CNS any animal has about 15-30 seconds to live with any other vital hit. Some animals just lay down and die, Others choose to run that last 30 seconds. I've seen 100 lb whitetails take a 165 gr 30-06 bullet through both lungs run over 100 yards. I've seen them lie down and die with the same shot placement.

It sounds to me like both elk were dead on their feet, the shooter just didn't give them time to lie down and die. And that was a wise decision.

 

[1KPerDay]

Elk have no shoulder joint???

 

[ironworkerwill]

Elk have no shoulder joint???

There's a joint between the scapula and humorous. The front leg is not attached to the rest of the animal via a joint.

 

[Snowbank!]

of the many elk I have killed, only the spine hits have caused them to drop. Lung and heart shots take a little bit for them to run out of blood. It's mostly a function of how big the vessel was that was breached. My longest was a mile with a one lung hit and the normal is about between 50 ft and 50 yds. You better learn to track and have some patience. I shoot a 7 mag with 175 gr bullets and my partners shoot 06 with 180 or 220 gr bullets. In over 50 years I have only lost one. For an unknown reason he ran uphill before tipping over. The distance was about 60yds. you can bet that I even search uphill now.

The bottom line is if you pull the trigger you had better commit to a reasonable search of a number of hours. No blood in the snow doesn't mean you didn't hit it. I hunt in the jungles and close shots are the norm. Crappy hits occur. sometimes elk don't bleed until the chest is full of blood.

 

[H&Hhunter]

There's a joint between the scapula and humorous. The front leg is not attached to the rest of the animal via a joint.

Absoloutley correct, Just like almost every quadruped on the planet. The one big exception are cats which have a vestigial clavicle.

 

[1KPerDay]

What does it make you wonder? All I did was ask a question. Both skeletons above look pretty much identical to me as far as shoulder joints. And I've never shot or quartered either a deer or elk. If that makes you wonder then wonder away.

 

[X-Rap]

A previous post claimed deer and elk had a different skeletal makeup.

 

[wankerjake]

A previous post claimed deer and elk had a different skeletal makeup.

And no shoulder joint. Which makes a body wonder if one who would assert that (not question) has actually seen an elk with its hide off.