8 rounds of 45 or 15 rounds of 9mm

[jbrown50]

Whether it's 8 rounds of 45, 15 rounds of 9mm or any other combination, it doesn't matter 'cause I train with what I carry.

Whatever you choose to carry, make sure you choose to carry it.

There are upsides and downsides to every caliber and combination on this planet. The sooner we realize that training, preparation and mindset are more important than hardware the better off we will be.

 

[alpha6164]

Short of a CNS shot, no common handgun caliber is ever adequate so i prefer more ammo to be able to double tap and not run out after three double taps. with good JHP such as gold dots/rangers/federal HSTs you will get 13-14" of penetration, 100% weight retention and 0.6-0.7" of expansion thru different media with both 9mm, 40 and 45acp. So if ballistics are different by 10% +/- then why not up your ammo by 25-50% in quantity?

 

[valorius]

While what you say is true, 'if you do carry and train with what you carry', then the details become more important.

A dangerous man is certainly more dangerous with good proven hollowpoints than he is with ball, and even more dangerous still with the proven hollowpoints that shoot the best out of his particular gun. He might only be 2-3% more dangerous, but in a gunfight that 2-3% might be the margin between glorious victory and an endless dirt nap.

 

[saturno_v]

I was used to make this kind of comparison (40 vs. 45) before I started carrying my Kel Tec P-11....I did buy it as a backup/summer clothing gun and it quickly become my main carry.....my Bersa Thunder 40 rest in my nightstand drawer and it is a pain to carry by comparison.

I can carry that little P-11 in any social situation...summer with shirt and shorts, business attire, even in a Tuxedo (I actually did it)....just my Uncle Mike pocket holster or my IWB holster and I'm good to go....it is more the platform than the caliber (within reasonable limits)...I still cannot believe that little thing can hold 12+1 rounds.

The chances (for a person like me) to get into a defensive situations while on the road are very remote.....the ones of someone surviving few well placed +P 124 gr. Hollow Point 9mm bullets are even more remote....

 

[alpha6164]

Valorius,

I agree with what you say. Because of that i can say categorically that i can train more with my 9mm than someone with 45acp if you consider just the cost of ammo. I can can Russian Bear 9mm 115gr for $8/box and shoot 250-500rnds a week. If had a 45 handgun i could shoot half to a third of that spending the same amount. This allows me to practice more.

So combining the facts that i shoot and practice more with my 9mm and carry a third or half more rounds than a 45acp would make me think that i may be more efficient at eliminating the threat than if i had a 45acp. There are extremes to this. This argument does not apply to a 22 handgun since its ballistics and terminal velocity is nothing like what a 9mm/40/45acp appear to be.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm fat and happy with a snubby .38.....

I have a 16 shot Ruger P85 and an 8 shot Ruger P90. I LOVE that P90 and most often carry it. They both fit the same rigs. But, it's not the caliber OR the capacity I like. I like the GUN, the P90, over the P85 for its accuracy and much better trigger in DA and SA and natural DA/SA transition. It's also stainless and a decock only which I prefer over the blued/safety decock P85. That P90 is one HELL of a great pistol. I really feel that 9x19 and .45 are pretty equal as low level handgun calibers go. I mean, neither is a .454 Casull or 500 S&W. They're service calibers and are as adequate to stop an altercation as any service caliber. As calibers go, if I'm picking on caliber alone, I'll go with .357 magnum over either, but then, we're talking auto pistols here.

I highly doubt I'm going to need 8 rounds, let alone 16. If I do, I've suddenly gone blind or something. And if someone is so inaccurate as to need 16 rounds to hit an attacker, he's probably going to lay out all the bystanders in the process. Thing is, I know I can hit with the P90. I've used it in countless competitions. It's an awesome accurate gun that I am one with and have supreme confidence in, which is half the battle.

 

[MR.G]

The one that I shoot the best, and is the most reliable. That being equal, the one that holds the most rounds.

 

[MCgunner]

You don't know your arse from a hole in the wall if you don't know that 9mm is INHERENTLY superior to the ol' dried up .45.

Lessee, the .45ACP came out in the 1911 (the year, also). The 9x19 came out I THINK in 1908 in the P08 Luger. Now, then, which one is old? Neither is "dried up".

 

[saturno_v]

I do not understand why after the publication of this well known test.....



.....which happened quite some time ago, these silly debates still go on....


There is anybody that seriously think that there is any actual practical differences in terminal effectiveness on humans between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP??? Do you really think that if you hit someone in exactly the same spot he/she may survive/shrug off a 9mm while a 45 would stop or kill?? If you really think so I have a bridge in New York to sell you....

 

[ugaarguy]

If you really think so I have a bridge in New York to sell you....

Only after they buy the ocean front property in Arizona from me, Saturno.

 

[migkillertwo]

If you haven't carried or shot either, I'd go with the 9mm simply because you only have the wisdom of others to trust, and I'm damn-near certain that more LEOs carry 9mm than .45 ACP.

But like others said, 10+1 or 13+1 rounds of .40 S&W is better than either (hence why more police departments use .40 SW than any other round)

 

[migkillertwo]

I was thinking something along the same lines (Is there really a situation where if someone would not be knocked down by 9mm, but would still be standing if the guy were shot in the same place by a .45?).

However, besides terminal ballistics, perhaps one should consider obstacle penetration (What if teh guy trying to kill you is using his vehicle as a weapon, or is shooting from a vehicle?) I'm no expert, but I'd think that the 230 grain .45 ACP FMJ might have much better obstacle penetration.

Speaking of which, given that the bad guy might be in a vehicle, should I alternate FMJ with JHP in my magazines?

 

[Purgatory]

I hope that wasn't the ONLY line in that post you found difference with, MCgunner.

I think all but about 3 lines were hogwash just to add a little salt n pepper to the thread, albeit, I didn't ASK if anyone else would like salt n pepper and I do apologize for that.

I'm really a .45 lover and actually very impressed with modern JHP's for the 9mm.

So, I'd be happy with either option as my post #6 states.

Hope it was ridiculous enough to make you laugh.

It was to me.

 

[valorius]

But like others said, 10+1 or 13+1 rounds of .40 S&W is better than either (hence why more police departments use .40 SW than any other round)

Honestly, i don't see how .40 offers any real world advantage at all over the top performing 9mm loads.

 

[Lastmohecken]

I have found that something along the lines of a lightweight commander in 45 is about the best compromise in fire power, confort, and speed of getting into action, based on trying to carry quite a few different guns, as I have come up with. Plus I have shot the 1911 for so long that it's just plainly the best choice for me, although I do carry smaller guns, when I have to, based on the siduation. I will stay with the 45, even though I have seen a good 9mm hollowpoint do a bang up job on some wild dogs one time.

 

[FTSESQ]

Honestly, for me its all about the gun. If I feel comfortable with a gun in terms of its reliability and accuracy, I will gladly carry it over a gun with higher capacity or larger/ more powerful caliber. I have carried both and have never felt "under gunned". That said, I also frequently carry a 7 shot .380.

 

[Allentown]

I think the myth of the .45 comes from stauncly entrenched military old timers who spent a career watching the results of hits with full metal jacket rounds between the two...and they are so well respected, so hard core, have so much experience.....are so "Patton'esque" that people just ...BELIEVE IT as truth.

Look im not saying that any given .45 rd might be a "little" better than a 9mm...but when i can carry 16rds of it in my 229 or 18 rds of it in a 226, with less recoil, faster follow up shots, less muzzle flash....

i think you see where i am going.

Now there are some people who CANT STAND DOUBLE STACK weapons....(i get it i really do)...and if you are going with a single stack weapon....chose the .45

.40s....eh. I have a "mediocre" feeling towards them.

 

[sarduy]

well i start off with a 7+1 .45acp (1911) then i moved 14+1 .40sw (sigma) then i moved to 19+1 (glock-17 with +2 extention) and now... i'm going to pick up my new Glock-37 (10+1 .45gap) tomorrow. (review comming soon)

i recommend you try both weapons. if you are a new shooter i recommend the 15+1 and practice a lot untill you feel confortable with your skill set to move to a 7+1...

now there is a gun (taurus 845) that holds 12+1 .45acp

 

[Allentown]

LOL and if you dont mind A LOT OF WEIGHT..you can get a .357magnun that shoots 8 rounds from taurus... not worth carrying though. Home defense .....maybe!

 

[LiveLife]

I carry a 45 (7 rounds per mag, 1 mag in the gun, 2 spares on my side...plus 1 round in the chamber)...if that won't get me out of trouble, I was in over my head to start with.

I think a GOOD situational awareness of when to engage your target(s) or not is far more important than the weapon of choice.

As to caliber/pistol/ammunition, I would recommend the combination you have the most amount of trigger time and confidence in to shoot accurately and quickly.

I like 45ACP as SD/HD caliber, but have a lot more trigger time with 40S&W as it is my match caliber. So it is G22/G27 for me.

 

[Defense Minister]

How about 7+1 of 9MM? My daily carry is usually a Kel-Tec PF-9, and I've lived to tell about it!

 

[coloradokevin]

I was thinking something along the same lines (Is there really a situation where if someone would not be knocked down by 9mm, but would still be standing if the guy were shot in the same place by a .45?).

Honestly, "knock down power" is something close to mythology anyway. Neither the 9mm or .45 ACP actually has the power to physically knock someone down. Hollywood loves to promote that myth, as it looks really darn cool on the movie screen. But, to really knock someone down you are seeking shock caused by massive blood loss, or severe damage to the central nervous system.

However, besides terminal ballistics, perhaps one should consider obstacle penetration (What if teh guy trying to kill you is using his vehicle as a weapon, or is shooting from a vehicle?) I'm no expert, but I'd think that the 230 grain .45 ACP FMJ might have much better obstacle penetration.

If you refer to my post on the first page of this thread, I shared some data from a recent wound ballistics seminar that my department hosted. There is some data there to compare the results of a 9mm and .45ACP as shot through windshield glass into calibrated ballistic gelatin. Differences are minimal. If you are gunning for an engine block, I'd want something a lot more substantial than a handgun.

Also, remember that a vehicle with a dead driver that is going 50 mph is still a vehicle going 50mph. Best course of action (whenever possible) is to get out of the way of the vehicle.

Speaking of which, given that the bad guy might be in a vehicle, should I alternate FMJ with JHP in my magazines?

Personal opinion, no. Keep your ammo consistent. In a gun fight you'll never remember what the next round in the pipe is anyway. And, again, both the 9mm and .45ACP showed acceptable performance when fired through windshield glass with high quality ammo.

 

[pvthouse]

Ummmmm.....call me crazy but my g21 that I carry every day has 13 in the mag and 1 in the hole. I will take .45. You should only need one or two anyways. Shot placement is key.

 

[LiveLife]

You should only need one or two anyways. Shot placement is key.

Not always, as you may not be able to determine where your bullets hit IF your attacker/target is moving.

We have moving targets as part of our USPSA stages (swingers behind barricades, pop-ups through an opening/window, slow moving sliders on track, pneumatic random speed movers, etc.) and most shooters who never shot at a moving target miss all of them on their first stage attempt. It takes a quite a bit of practice for them to hit any part of the moving targets even though they attempt center-of-mass aim.

We tell the first time shooters of moving targets that in real-world shooting, our attackers/targets won't stand still at 7-10 yards - they'll be moving with/without cover with weapon in hand often under low light situations. You can shoot more than 2 shot double-taps as best 2 rounds are scored. In real-life situations, you can shoot as many rounds as you can to "neutralize" your immediate threat and still be reaching for a spare magazine.

I like 45ACP, but sometimes round count has its benefits.

 

[Lucky Derby]

I wouldn't alternate loads in a mag, but.....
years ago I was working security in some REALLY bad apt complexes and Stop-n-Rob type stores.
My duty weapon was a Sig P220 .45. I carried four spare mags in a quad mag pouch. Good 230 grain hollow points in the gun and first three sprare mags. The forth mag was loaded with 230 grain FMJ. My thinking at the time was in a true SHTF situation I might need to shoot through a windshield, car door, dumpster, etc. It at least gave me an option. If I was not carrying that many spare mags, regardless of how many rounds each mag held, I would have just gone with the HPs.
I also had a J frame .38 on my vest.