8mm or 7.62x54R for cheap 300 yard bolt rifle?

[hartzpad]

I've been considering picking up an old mauser or other bolt rifle in 8mm or 7.62x54R, not for 1 MOA shooting, but just to be able to ring some long distance (200-400 yard) steel targets, scoped of course. Both rounds are cheap and all rifles are cheap as well, but I'm not too familiar with 8mm, but I know a little about 7.62x54R, how do they compare with eachother? With .308 win?

Also, anyone know about the ATI Mauser stocks?

I generally hate ATI stocks because they look cheap, but I have never seen these ATI mauser stocks in any real photos. I would never bubba-ize a decent C&R rifle, but if I have one that is in poor shape I would consider using one of these stocks on it. Anyone have a pic of this ATI stock or have you seen one in person? It has the two things I would be looking for: 1) rubber buttpad, 2) built in scope mount.

I guess you could say that this stock is used to make a "poor man's tactical bolt rifle." I figure w/o scope, I could have this thing done for less than $200 and shoot surplus ammo all day long.

 

[Eightball]

If by 7.62x54R you mean a Mosin, then you can't get too much more inexpensive. Cheap ammo, cheap rifle, total fun (to my knowledge, haven't gotten one myself...yet ). And, they make those ATI stocks for M91/30's, if that suits your fancy. But, for the amount of bang for the buck, I'd suggest 7.62x54R.

 

[jefnvk]

8mm. I just don't like that funky Mosin action, too ackward for me. 8mm also has a bunch more options for guns and ammo. You get a choice from German, Turkish, Yugo, Persian and Czech guns, and as many types of ammo. The commie mosins are pretty much all the same, no matter where they came from. I think 8mm has a bit of a power advantage on the Russkie, too.

ATI stocks are fugly. I have seen some in person, but they do appear that they will work. And it is not bubbaizing if the gun can be put back into original condition, which with a stock change it can.

 

[Jeff Timm]

Just to rattle a different cage.

6.5 Swedish, the guns are out there, but reloading is the only way to get inexpensive highly accurate ammo.

Geoff
Who will stick with his .308 Remington 700, but I bought it many moons agone.

 

[Cosmoline]

Choices choices. You can currently find Russian 91/30's, M-44's and M-38's at a lower price than just about any other rifles or carbines. If you were after cheap CARBINES, Mosins win out because true Mauser carbines tend to be expensive collector's items. But it sounds like you want something that can reach out.

I'd suggest looking at getting either a nice Finnish M-39 or a solid VZ-24 Mauser. There are cheaper Mausers and cheaper Mosins, but genearlly their accuracy won't be as good. You're looking at spending between $150 and $250 for a quality Finnish M-39 Mosin or Czech/Persian Mauser, so prices are similar.

The 7.62x54R and 8x57JS are both on par with the .30'06. How expensive and easy to find they are depends a bit on whether you mail order bulk ammo and what your local shops stock. Both have pretty abundant supplies of surplus, though I suspect 54R's surplus reserves are a lot deeper than 57JS'. The world's armies stopped making 8x57JS after WWII for the most part, but continued to crank out 54R long into the cold war.

54R has another big advantage--MOTHER RUSSIA SURVIVED, NAZI GERMANY DID NOT. There are at least four large ammo makers in Russia still cranking out good quality, non-corrosive 7.62x54R. Wolf ammo is probably the best, and I've had great results with their 200 grain loadings in my Mosins. In my last M-39 it gave MOA groups.

S&B, Norma and some other European comanies are still making 8x57JS, but they charge more for it than the Russian outfits charge for their 54R. And they're also making 54R. So on balance 54R is the more economical ammo.

I've handloaded both, and overall the 8x57JS is more modern in its design and probably a better catridge. I'd rank it in the top ten of best cartridges ever. It's certainly better than the .30'06 as it does more with less overall length. But I had problems finding quality 8mm bullets that weren't designed for the 8mm Rem. Magnum. And the reloading manuals set to weak SAAMI pressures are useless.

That brings up another problem with 8x57JS--the domestic US makers of it are not really making 8x57JS, they're making 8x57J. That's the precurser to the JS that was much lower pressure. SAAMI is paranoid about someone dropping a high powered JS round into an old Commission Mauser and blowing himself up. Considering how few Commission Mausers are in circulation outside the hands of collectors today, it's a pretty silly concern. But in the mean time all US makers are cranking out 8x57JS that's on par with the .30-30 in power.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cnt.

In general terms, most Mausers are of higher quality than most Mosins--at least when comparing them with Soviet era Mosins. But Mosins have some big advantages. For one thing, Mosins have had very limited changes since 1891. Most parts from a Russian Mosin carbine will fit a Finnish long rifle. They all use the same two basic kinds of receivers--high wall and low wall. Dimensions of the receiver, magazine assembly and bolt are identical across the board--only the stocks and barrels change.

Mausers are another story. There are dozens and dozens of subtypes and even many other receiver and bolt styles than the '98. Czech and German receivers are longer than Yugo receivers, and none of them will exchange parts with Swedish, Spanish or other early Mausers.

As far as the ATI stock I haven't heard good things. You're mounting the scope to the stock, for one thing, which is never a good idea no matter how much you try to anchor it. I really like the "scout mount" concept for Mausers and Mosins, and this is a lot easier to do than putting an American style mounton the things. If you want a traditional American hunting rifle for a low price, go buy a Savage package deal with those great triggers. It will cost less and work better than trying to gunsmith some poor Mosin or Mauser into the role.

"The commie mosins are pretty much all the same, no matter where they came from."

Except that not all Mosins were Red. The best were WHITE! I'd say DO NOT buy a Finnish mosin if you're going to hack it up. All Finns are rare and their prices are climbing across the board. You can still get M-39's for under $200, but that will not last long. If you're going to get one, get one now. But don't cut it. You absolutely do not have to. See my thread on using a Darrel's no-smithing mount on my M-39 for an example of what can be done without hacking.

 

[Magnum88C]

I'd vote for the Mosin. Mausers never did much for me.

You can get Mosins for cheap that are still good shooters. Just keep in mind that neither Mosins nor Mausers were designed for sub-MOA shooting, they're battle rifles, not target rifles. If you want to ring plates like you said, either will do.

The Mosins also have another advantage in that they fire the 7.62x54R ammo. Nice thing about this ammo is that it's still current production military ammo. Russian .30 cal machine guns use it as well as their Dragunov designated marksman rifles, so there will be surplus ammo for the forseeable future. No one makes current production military ammo in 8mm Mauser.

For commercial ammo, S&B makes good 8mm (full power) and 7.62x54R ammo, although it's pricey. The Winchester 7.62 is made by S&B, it's the same stuff. But the 7.62 has the advantage again in that Russian commercial ammo is very inexpensive (Barnaul and Wolf hunting ammo, 200-gr SP, is under $8/20 locally, FMJ is a little less). Commercial 8mm is much more expensive.

The 7.62x54R is as powerful as war-era 30'06, or current commercial .308. The 8mm(JS) is a little more powerful, but not much.

 

[jefnvk]

The commie mosins are pretty much all the same, no matter where they came from.

Except that not all Mosins were Red. The best were WHITE!

True, I forgot about the Finns. Much nicer, from what I am told. But still, the basic sub system remins the same.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I like both guns, but the Mosin would get my nod, because of ammo availability (BTW you can still find some steel core ammo for theMosin if you know what your looking for).

BTW I have held that ATI stock fitted to a Mauser and it was H...E....A....V....Y....so much so that I almost couldn't hold a sight on anything for long.

The Mosin replacement stocks from Advance Technology are much better, even though many think they "look" bad. There are other stock makers who make stocks for both that are "custom".

Enjoy which ever you get...

 

[Smokey Joe]

Mosin vs. Mauser

No one has commented on this: Perhaps it's just me. But I don't like the rotating large knob on the back of the Mosin bolt that passes for a safety. It looks the same rolled over one way as it does rolled over the other way. By comparison the lever-thing on the Mauser bolt is much more positive and easy to see as to what setting it is on, plus it is a true 3-position safety. I passed up on an opportunity to buy a Mosin. Have gotten into Mauser M48's and like them very much.

BTW, IMHO the ATI stock is Butt-Ugly, in addition to attaching the 'scope to the stock rather than to the rifle's action. I would not buy one.

By comparison, Boyd's makes several models of laminated wood stocks for almost all the common milsurps, and they look downright elegant. You must be willing to fit the stock to your gun with a Dremel tool, and to glass-bed the stock, as well as finishing it. But all of that is not hard, just putzy. Honest, if I can do it you can do it. The usual advice applies: Go slow and read the directions.

 

[rbernie]

One advantage of the Mauser over the Mosin - you can grow it as you need it to. The Mauser action has been *the* definitive action for a century now. That means that you can drop in a Timney trigger, you can easily get it rebarreled, you have your choice of dozens of pre-inlet stocks, and so forth. Can't do that with a Mosin.

If you want a cheap rifle that you can keep running and spiff up a wee bit here and there as you go - the Mauser is a logical winner.

 

[ajax]

I wont compare calibers but i will tell you that i own a Mosin M44 and a yugo M48a and you cant go wrong with either one. But i will say that 148gr fmj in 7.62 54 will peirce half in. peice of steel at 125 yards. Ton of punch. Also that ATI stock just looks like it mounts to the stock but it doesnt. Check out ATI web site and you can see how it works.

 

[Smokey Joe]

ATI stock

Ajax--following yr advice I just checked out Advanced Technology's website. They make a variety of stocks. The one they make for the Mauser 98 sure looks to me like the 'scope--on regular rings--mounts to a Pickatinny rail, located ON THE STOCK, not attached to the firearm's action. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

You didn't address my second point. That ATI Mauser stock is UUUUUGLEEE!!! I'm a great fan of "if it works, use it," but I couldn't bring myself to drop a beautiful well made thing like a Mauser action and bbl into something that looks like that ATI stock, solely on esthetic grounds. You do it. Give us a range report. I would be really interested to see how the ATI stock does in the accuracy department.

 

[Feanaro]

Both are comparable rounds, cheap and readily available in surplus form. 7.62x54R is more widely loaded than 7.92, especially if you only count full strength stuff. The surplus supply for the Rusky cartridge is likely much deeper than the 7.92 stores. But I couldn't get into the Mosin rifles like some do. The flash and boom of an MN carbine is fun but I find that the bolt on my Yugo48A is faster and easier to work. Fits me better too. If both rifles were left in a bog for three days and I had to pick one, I'd take the Mosin. But the Mauser design is usually so reliable that the difference is probably purely academic.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't have (or want) either, but I have read many more reports of good accuracy with the Commie than the Kraut. If you want to actually shoot a surplus rifle at targets, I conclude you will be better off with the MN.

The Mauser is a nicer action if you want to fool around with it, generations of gunsmiths have made good livings off of them.

 

[jefnvk]

Another thign to consider, if this is going to be used for hunting, there is more commercial ammo available for the 8mm.

As for surplus, the local gunshows usually have 1400 round cases of Turk 8mm for under $100.

 

[cracked butt]

For mausers I'd pick: czech 98/22, 98/29, or Yugo M48 in that order. All of them are capable of very good accuracy with decent surplus ammo.

For MNs- I don't have a Finn, but I wouldn't waste my time on on a MN unless it were either a Finn or an Russian ex-sniper. I have a couple each of M38s, M44s, and 91/30s and out of the bunch only one of the 91/30s is even worth taking to the range.

If you want to mount a scope, want a surplus rifle shooting surplus ammo that can actually hit things several hundred yards out, spend $100 on a swiss K-31, get a St Marie scope mount http://www.grafs.com/shopRegularproducts.cfm/startItem/1

and put your favorite scope on it. Order 7.5x55 ammo from AIM ($23 per 60 rounds) You will have a shooter right out of the box and don't have to worry if the barrel has been shot out, the lack of russian quality control, having the bolt on a mauser or MN rebent to fit a scope, or about low quality ammo.

 

[cracked butt]

To add- with whatever you buy, try shooting it with out the scope if your eyesight is not bad. Some of the rifles out there will shoot amazingly well with iron sights, even open sights.

 

[ajax]

Smokey Joe you are absolutly correct. Its ugly as sin. The upper portion of the stock is more secure than it looks but your right it doesnt mount directly to the reciever or barrel but indirectly. My mistake for not being more specific I wouldn't put my rifle in that thing but a friend did. It was ok but the mount was more secure than it looks.

 

[Ash]

There's quite a bit of Commercial ammo for 7.62x54R. I currently have commercial soft points from Hungary, Russia, the Czech Republic, Bosnia and Serbia. That doesn't count the Norma/Lapua stuff. Of the above, half are brass-cased boxer-primed. Bullets range from 150 grains up to 204 grains with S&B and Hungary offering flat-based bullets and Barnaul and Privi Partisan offering boat tails. Commercial ammo is very easy to get, and generally cheaper, for 7.62x54r versus 8mm.

Ash

 

[Cosmoline]

But still, the basic sub system remins the same.

That's not a bad thing, though. The inherent design of the M1891 is excellent. It's lasted through two world wars and countless brutal conflicts all over the planet. It can also be an extremely accurate rifle. The Finnish M-28/30--the infamous "Rifle of White Death" is on average one of the most accurate military rifles ever made. The Mosins, both Red and White, have racked up more sniper kills than Mausers or anything in US arsenals. I would rank it behind the SMLE as an all-around combat rifle, but it's at least the equal of the Mauser.

I'll offer this bit of unscientific observation. The 54R headspaces on the rim, the 8x57JS on the shoulder. While the JS is the more modern of the two systems, in my observations Mausers tend to be far more headspace sensitive than Mosins. I've fired (with a string) an old Finn with bad headspace and found the shell still held together even with stretch marks and ruptured primers. OTOH I've had nothing but problems when Mausers are even slightly out of headspace. The bolts freeze up solid and cases split quickly.

As far as the ex-snipers, there are quite a few Soviet ex-snipers out there. Aztec usually has some on hand. There are virtually no true Finnish ex-snipers, but this isn't significant. A Finn 91/30 will generally shoot as well as a Russian ex-sniper 91/30.

 

[hartzpad]

Thanks for the ideas and replies. I would get a Swiss K31 in a second if the ammo were more affordable. The whole reason why I'm looking at 7.62x54R and 8mm rifles is because of cheap ammo, otherwise I would get a Remington 700 and shoot some .308 match ammo.

I either want to shoot surplus 8mm or surplus .308

Are there scope mounts for 8mm mausers that don't detract from the value or that can be taken off w/o ruining the rifles?

Now I'm either looking at an original 8mm mauser w/ a scope mounted or I'll just continue looking at DPMS .308's, JLD PTR-91's or VEPR .308's, so I can shoot surplus .308. The Mosin's don't really appeal to me as much and I'm not sure that I want to get a Savage or Remington .308 target rifle because I'll have to buy factory or match ammo for it.

Either 8mm mauser w/ a scope or a semi-auto MBR .308. For the mean time I'll continue ringing the 200 yard plates w/ my scoped VEPR AK in 7.62x39

 

[goon]

I would, and have already gone, with the Mosin Nagant.
It is a bit archaic compared to a Mauser, but then again, a Mauser is archaic compared to an FAL.
For cheap blasting it is hard to beat.
I have both a 91/30 and a M-39. The Finn is nicer but I shoot the Russian more. I am hesitant to shoot corrosive ammo out of my baby and I even go so far as to always clean it as if I was shooting corrosive ammo eventhough Wolf is SUPPOSED to be noncorrosive. I would say that the Finn is the only gun I have that gets babied.
OTOH, the Russian just gets shot. I shoot the hell out of it with whatever ammo will chamber in it. I do clean it properly and take care of it. I just run a windex soaked patch or two through the bore and wipe the bolt off with it, then clean normally. No problem really, but I don't want to risk it with my Finn. Although the 91/30 is in excellent condition, it is not anywhere near as nice as a Finnish Mosin to begin with. I feel no guilt about shooting it until my shoulder hurts (which takes a long time).
I had another M-39 that I used to be able to hit clay pigeons at 200 yards. I could barely see them at that range but my hit rate was remarkably high with the issue iron sights. The rifle shot high anyway so I figured I should make the most of it.
I also love the Mosin Nagant action. It has about three moving parts and something like three screws in the whole rifle. Very simple.
I would say if you want a shooter, get a Russian Mosin.

For the record, I used to shoot Portugese FNM surplus 7.62 ammo through my Savage 10FP. It shot great, was very accurate, and had no unwanted side effects.

 

[Cosmoline]

For the corrosive stuff, I've had excellent results spraying down the barrel while still at the range with M-pro cleaner. It really cuts through the corrosive salts. So far it's been 100% effective against Albanian and Czech ball ammo.

 

[ajax]

Hartzpad there are several possibilities for scope mounts. I recommend Iron Elites cantilever style that mounts at the rear site. It is fantastic as for as mounts go. Its made of real metal. Imagine that.