9mm 1911 vs. CZ 75B SA

[Lothar]

I'm considering buying one of the following two pistols, and am curious to hear comparative opinions from people who have experience with both pistols (or some variant):

1) CZ 75 SA Target (the Custom Shop model of the CZ 75 B SA, customized by Angus Hobdell's shop)

2) STI Trojan 1911 (9mm)

I do plan to try them both out if I can find them, but I doubt that my local range will actually have them, so I may end up ordering one before I can try it out. If I don't like it, I'll sell it later--not a big deal to me.

The intended use of the gun is strictly for slow-fire bullseye target shooting. It will not be a home-defense or carry weapon. I don't compete, so it's just for personal fun. What's fun to me is getting the tightest possible groups on slow-fire targets, and occasional steel shooting.

Here's my understanding from what I have researched about them (feel free to tell me if you disagree)...

The CZ 75 B SA has a pretty decent trigger out of the box, but the Target model has a trigger job done by the foremost expert on the gun, so I expect it to be nothing less than phenomenal. The camming action of the hammer (where the trigger pulls the hammer back a bit before it drops) is supposedly eliminated in the Target model due to the competition hammer, so there's little or no creep. The sights are a fiberoptic front, and Novak rear. I'm not sure if I'd like all-black rear sights, if that's what the Novak's are (not enough contrast against official NRA targets), but I can always swap those out.

The STI Trojan is supposedly very tightly built, and many seem to consider it the best 9mm 1911 available in the ~$1000 price range. The 1911 is not designed around a 9mm platform though, so I am somewhat wary of potential reliability issues. The only downside I see to that gun otherwise is the small magazine capacity, due to the single-stack design.

For the price that I'd be paying for either gun (around $1100), I don't want to feel like I need to do any modifications to it before I'll consider it to be an excellent target gun. I'm looking for an outstanding out-of-the box target pistol.

I'm sure I'll get the typical response from somebody that 1911's have no business being used as a 9mm, but I have zero interest in .45, mainly due to the cost of ammo.

My current favorite 9mm for target use is my Browning Hi-Power with the mag disconnector removed, and a Garthwaite competition trigger. As much as I love that gun, I'm hoping to get something that is more accurate in my hands. The feel of my BHP, ergonmically, is about as close to perfect as I can imagine ever having in a pistol.

I may end up just buying both of them, or perhaps even a Springfield Armory Loaded, instead of the STI Trojan, but perhaps you guys can help me decide which to buy first.

 

[chris in va]

I can only comment on what I see at our IDPA matches, and having owned a stock 75BD for a few years.

The 1911 guys are always having to do reloads, adding time to the score. I never did warm up to the platform, just personal preference.

You'll probably find the CZ has incredible ergonomics compared to most other handguns on the market. It also has a lower bore axis than the 1911, making for more accurate follow up shots.

The 1911 guys will be along soon to tout it's virtues, so really it's just whatever floats your boat.

 

[Lothar]

The 1911 guys are always having to do reloads, adding time to the score.

I assume you mean reloads due to running out of ammo from the limited single-stack capacity... or did you mean reloads because of malfunctions?

Good observation about the lower bore axis on the CZ. That wouldn't have occurred to me.

 

[rcmodel]

The other thing is, the CZ-75 was designed to be a 9mm, with 1.169" long 9mm Luger ammo.

The 1911 wasn't.
It was designed for 1.275" long .45 ACP, and later 1.280" long .38 Super, if you wanted a 9mm caliber.

So there is excess room in the 1911 magazine for 9mm Luger rounds that have to be taken out with ribs or blocks in the magazine.

Most times it works, but sometimes it doesn't.

rc

 

[Big Dave]

If it's just a target gun I wouldn't get a 75b which has a firing pin block. I'd get one of the shadows, which doesnt and will have a better single action trigger. I have a 75 shadow Sao which is very nice. A custom sp01 shadow can also be made Sao.

 

[Lothar]

If it's just a target gun I wouldn't get a 75b which has a firing pin block. I'd get one of the shadows, which doesnt and will have a better single action trigger. I have a 75 shadow Sao which is very nice. A custom sp01 shadow can also be made Sao.

I had briefly considered a Shadow, but ruled it on on 3 grounds: (1) I don't care for SA/DA triggers, and don't want to have to pay extra to have it made SAO (the stock Target is already more money than I want to spend), (2) I prefer the straight flat trigger on the SA Target (and again, don't want to pay extra to get it), and (3) I just love the classic looks of the SA Target, and have never personally cared for the looks of the Shadow (I'm a Browning Hi-Power fan, go figure).

Regarding the firing pin block though, isn't it a simple matter to just remove it, or would the gun then require some gunsmithing to adjust it to the new configuration?

 

[rbernie]

The other thing is, the CZ-75 was designed to be a 9mm, with 1.169" long 9mm Luger ammo.

The 1911 wasn't.
It was designed for 1.275" long .45 ACP, and later 1.280" long .38 Super, if you wanted a 9mm caliber.

So there is excess room in the 1911 magazine for 9mm Luger rounds that have to be taken out with ribs or blocks in the magazine.

Most times it works, but sometimes it doesn't.

I have found the Springfield/Leatham 9mm magazines for the 1911 to be absolutely flawless. The design just *works*.

Having owned both CZ75SA's (altho not Angus-worked units) and multiple brands of 9mm 1911's - if a 9rd magazine capacity isn't a handicap for your intended shooting, I'd pick the STI.

 

[Lothar]

I was beginning to wonder if I was going to get any votes at all for the STI, rbernie, thanks for the counterpoint!

 

[Jim Watson]

A CZ with tuned SAO trigger has a great feel.
I don't know how accurate they are relative to a slowfire bullseye.
The gun I think you are talking about comes with fixed sights. I'd want adjustable for bullseye shooting.

A Trojan gets you adjustable sights and a trigger that is good and can be made excellent.
I don't know about its accuracy either, but it is of straightforward 1911 layout and can be accurized to any desired level if not satisfactory to start with.

I don't know what Chris is talking about on reloads. In IDPA, I get 10 rounds in my Colt 9mm ESP, he gets 10 rounds in his CZ SSP. He has some vacant space in the magazine, I don't, so what?

Regulation bullseye is shot in 5 round strings.
Even if not shooting the regulation event, I think I would still just load five.
Going from a full 15 round magazine to the last shot has noticeable effect on the balance of the gun.

 

[Lothar]

A CZ with tuned SAO trigger has a great feel.
I don't know how accurate they are relative to a slowfire bullseye.
The gun I think you are talking about comes with fixed sights. I'd want adjustable for bullseye shooting.

A Trojan gets you adjustable sights and a trigger that is good and can be made excellent.
I don't know about its accuracy either, but it is of straightforward 1911 layout and can be accurized to any desired level if not satisfactory to start with.

I don't know what Chris is talking about on reloads. In IDPA, I get 10 rounds in my Colt 9mm ESP, he gets 10 rounds in his CZ SSP. He has some vacant space in the magazine, I don't, so what?

Regulation bullseye is shot in 5 round strings.
Even if not shooting the regulation event, I think I would still just load five.
Going from a full 15 round magazine to the last shot has noticeable effect on the balance of the gun.

Excellent points Jim, thanks for the thoughts.

The part about the trigger on a Trojan only being "good" and requiring work to become excellent gives me pause. I really don't want to spend extra money on either of these guns to get them to have an excellent trigger. Considering that the CZ is already going to come tuned by Angus, it presumably can't get any better than that, short of removing the firing pin block.

Since I don't compete, I am used to shooting 15-round groups (mainly from my BHP). I'm only comparing scores against myself, so whether I am shooting 15 rounds or just 5 doesn't really matter in my mind, as long as I am consistent. That's a great point though about the balance changing as a full 15-round mag gets used up. I've never noticed that personally, though it might explain many of my sloppier groups!

 

[TonyT]

Lothar,
I shoot both the CZ-75SA and Dan Weson PM-9 in 9mm and an STI Trojan in 40 S&W. Previously I shot a SA 191 Target in 9mm but sold it as it provided very mediocre accuracy.
You are lookig at two entirely different platforms. The 1911 style in 9mm appeals to the 1911 afficionados and works well with mild loads in Single Stack classification in some pistol games. My DW PM-9 will provide nice tight 1 inch groups at 50 ft. A fellow shooter uses an STI Trojan in 9mm for the normal pistol games and it appears to function reliably. That has not been the case with my 40 S&W Trojan. In contrast my DW 1911 Pointman in 40 S&W is very reliable and accurate. 1911's were designed around a 45ACP with a round nose bullet and any deviation equires careful attention to details to insure proper function. You are limited to single stack magazines unless you go to one of the wide bodied 9's such as Para Ordnance or STI - the PO has a very wide grip.
The CZ-75 has alwys had great ergonomics and I was very impressed with the trigger jobs done by Angus Hobdell when I visited his shop two winters ago. For a large capacity 9mm it has a very comfortable grip which is much narrower than the Para Ordnance. I have four CZ pistols and thery all have been super reliable.
If I were going to choose between them I would opt for the Hobdell tuned CZ-75.

 

[railroader]

I'll just throw this out there. How about a short dust cover sao shadow. This gun doesn't have adjustable sights but it has all the other goodies including a no firing pin block slide which will allow you to fine tune the trigger. The gun is also $100 less than the sa target. So you know I have a 75sa with competion sights, competition hammer with the firing pin block removed and the straight trigger. I also have a sp-01 shadow that has a straight sao trigger. Both have fixed sights but both are very accurate. Here's the short dustcover shadow. http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowsablk.aspx Mark

 

[Lothar]

@TonyT: Thanks, that was an extremely useful comparison!

@railroader: I do like the look of that SAO Shadow much more than the standard Shadow--thanks for posting it. Two things about it that I would want to change, which the SA Target already has, would be to replace that curved trigger with the straight one, and replace the grips with thin aluminum grips. That would make it end up being more expensive than the SA Target, so it would have to have something else going for it that the SA Target doesn't have before I'd seriously consider it.

I'm wondering how the Angus-tuned trigger on the SA Target, perhaps if I were to remove the firing pin block myself, would compare with the trigger on the SAO Shadow?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If you feel you must remove the firing pin block on a CZ, have the Custom Shop do it -- as there are other minor adjustments that should be made when the firing pin block is taken out. The internal geometry can change a bit, and Angus can do that as part of the build.

For most of us mortals, leaving the firing pin block IN, in a Hobdell Shop-tuned gun, is not going to be a negative. Most of us wouldn't know the difference. A very competent shooter MIGHT be able to tell the difference.

 

[railroader]

@TonyT: Thanks, that was an extremely useful comparison!

@railroader: I do like the look of that SAO Shadow much more than the standard Shadow--thanks for posting it. Two things about it that I would want to change, which the SA Target already has, would be to replace that curved trigger with the straight one, and replace the grips with thin aluminum grips. That would make it end up being more expensive than the SA Target, so it would have to have something else going for it that the SA Target doesn't have before I'd seriously consider it.

I'm wondering how the Angus-tuned trigger on the SA Target, perhaps if I were to remove the firing pin block myself, would compare with the trigger on the SAO Shadow?

Lothar, read the description of the gun. The picture is wrong. That shadow comes with the straight SAO trigger. Then if you want the aluminum grips just add them. Mark

 

[Lothar]

Lothar, read the description of the gun. The picture is wrong. That shadow comes with the straight SAO trigger. Then if you want the aluminum grips just add them. Mark

Thanks, Mark, I missed that.

By the time I add the aluminum grips though, there's only about a $30 difference in price, so I'm not clear on what the Shadow would get me that the Target doesn't have, except an extra 2 rounds in the mag (not a plus for me, as I would only be loading it with 15 for target use, and I like the looks of the flush-fit 16-rounder more anyway). I may be being superficial here, but the 18-rounder sort of ruins the classic look of the gun to me.

There's the firing pin block difference, but if what Walt said is correct (thanks very much for that info, Walt, that was very useful info), I wouldn't notice the difference anyway with an Angus-tuned SA Target, and would have a slightly safer gun with the block intact. The presence of a firing pin block is actually a selling point to me, not a detractor. I left it intact in my Browning Hi-Power too, even though it adds a bit of weight to the trigger pull on that gun.

I'm still open to commentary on the Shadow, as there may be something else that I'm not considering, and I haven't made up my mind yet. I appreciated hearing about this alternative!

 

[railroader]

The difference in the trigger between the two guns is going to be the length of pretravel and the length of reset of the trigger. On the shadow all that has to reset is the sear which is farther back on the trigger pull. On the target with the FPB, the sear and the lifter for the FPB have to reset and that is farther forward than the sear reset point. On the target you will have slack in the trigger between the two reset points but on the shadow you can adjust out the slack because the trigger doesn't need to come as far forward. You also will have a longer trigger reset on the target for the same reason. Taking the FPB out of the target is pretty easy if you decide to go with that gun. As for FPBs quite a few 1911 pistols don't have them too like springfield and dan wesson. You can also ask CZcustom which gun has the better trigger for your needs. Mark

 

[Jim Watson]

If you are going to be buying direct from Angus H., it wouldn't hurt to talk to him about adding an adjustable rear sight.

 

[Lothar]

@railroader: Thanks for that info, that was extremely helpful! I think I'm going to do some more research about that firing pin block before I decide on the gun model, but it seems like you've summed up very nicely what there is to know.

@Jim: That was my plan exactly. I'm considering the adjustable fiber optic sight set that Angus sells, but I'm having a hard time picturing how tall they will be on the gun:

http://czcustom.com/LPA-TTF-CZ-75-FO.aspx

 

[red rick]

About 2 years ago I was trying to decide between the CZ 75 SA custom and a Pointman 9. I choose the Pointman 9. My reason for picking it were I like the 1911 platform and they were both about the same price. It is more accurate than me and it fills like shooting a 22 . I don't think that you can make a bad decession with either choice.

 

[railroader]

@railroader: Thanks for that info, that was extremely helpful! I think I'm going to do some more research about that firing pin block before I decide on the gun model, but it seems like you've summed up very nicely what there is to know.

@Jim: That was my plan exactly. I'm considering the adjustable fiber optic sight set that Angus sells, but I'm having a hard time picturing how tall they will be on the gun:

http://czcustom.com/LPA-TTF-CZ-75-FO.aspx

I had those sights on another cz75. The rear I had was plain black with the fiber optic front. It had a good sight picture but they sat very tall on the gun. The front sight was around .300" tall. Here's a pic of a gun with those sights. http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5188/41dr.jpg Mark

 

[Lothar]

I had those sights on another cz75. The rear I had was plain black with the fiber optic front. It had a good sight picture but they sat very tall on the gun. The front sight was around .300" tall. Here's a pic of a gun with those sights. http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5188/41dr.jpg Mark

Wow, those are a lot taller than I was expecting! Thanks so much for posting that. It's not like I'm going to be carrying this CZ, but I'm not sure I could get used to the look of sights like those. I wonder if there is another adjustable rear sight that will work with the (much lower) front fiber optic sight that comes with the SA Target--something lower-profile.

 

[Lothar]

About 2 years ago I was trying to decide between the CZ 75 SA custom and a Pointman 9. I choose the Pointman 9. My reason for picking it were I like the 1911 platform and they were both about the same price. It is more accurate than me and it fills like shooting a 22 . I don't think that you can make a bad decession with either choice.

That's a nice-looking gun, Rick. Speaking of shooting like a .22, that's another reason why I am slightly leaning toward the CZ... because I can get the .22 conversion kit for it. I'm not sure if there is such a thing that would fit on the STI Trojan? The thought of shooting a 1911 as a .22 is almost comical.

 

[marine 97-03]

Wow...cz. over sti....lol fanboyisim is alive and well

 

[dcarch]

I love the 1911, but it's only supposed to exist in .45 ACP. As far as a 9mm goes, I would have to go with the CZ. A lot of the proprietary advantages of the 1911 are lost when you go over to 9mm. For one thing, as others have attested to, the 1911 was designed to function with the .45. When you try to run it in a caliber it wasn't intended for, sometimes problems crop up. That being said, the CZ was designed for 9mm, has a higher capacity, and IMHO, has almost better ergonomics than the 1911. Therefore, given this range of selections, my vote is for the CZ SA Target.