9mm Carbine for defense?

[briansmithwins]

This makes no sense to me. Anyone who is comfortable carrying a handgun chambered in 9x19 for SD ought to be equally comfortable using a carbine chambered in 9x19 for the same purpose, as it's only going to be more effective. Yes, over-penetration may be more common, but if one follows the four rules, penetration needn't warrant any more or less consideration regardless of the platform.

We carry pistols because they are easy to carry, not because they are particulary effective. If I'm going to put up with carbine weight and bulk, I want a more effective cartridge, like 555 NATO or 7.62x39.

BSW

 

[Bobson]

Sure that's understandable. A 9x19 carbine isn't going to be ideal (read: best option), but its far from being good for nothing but range duty, which was what I was trying to point out.

ETA:

What's the general consensus on what a carbine actually is, anyway? Obviously an AR platform rifle could be called a carbine, depending on config. What about something like an MP5 or UMP - are those carbines? If not, what are they?

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I think the Storm would be a great defensive carbine. In fact I've been eyeballing one for a while. While I wouldn't feel undergunned with one (after all, I carry a 9mm sidearm) I agree that if you are going to have a rifle sized gun it might as well be a real rifle. Especially since you can get a good basic M4-type gun for the same price.

Still, I wouldn't turn my nose up at that little Beretta. I think you can get 20 round mags for it. That's 20 rounds on tap that can be delivered very accurately at a very high rate. I imagine I could get fifteen very solid COM hits faster with the Storm carbine than with my HK P30S.

 

[briansmithwins]

Still, I wouldn't turn my nose up at that little Beretta. I think you can get 20 round mags for it. That's 20 rounds on tap that can be delivered very accurately at a very high rate. I imagine I could get fifteen very solid COM hits faster with the Storm carbine than with my HK P30S.

You ought to be able to.

I frequently shoot our local speed steel match with my Uzi. I can turn in faster times with it than almost all the pistol shooters. Pistol shooters that clean my clock by full seconds when I'm shooting a pistol.

Any carbine gets you another more stability, less recoil, and hopefully better sights than a pistol.

My point is that if you're lugging around a carbine anyway, haul the most effective carbine you can.

BSW

 

[Warp]

Sure that's understandable. A 9x19 carbine isn't going to be ideal (read: best option), but its far from being good for nothing but range duty, which was what I was trying to point out.

ETA:

What's the general consensus on what a carbine actually is, anyway? Obviously an AR platform rifle could be called a carbine, depending on config. What about something like an MP5 or UMP - are those carbines? If not, what are they?

Carbine can mean a shorter version of a rifle.

Or it can mean a rifle with the legal minimum barrel length (16") or shorter (SBR).

Or it can be an arbitrary thing people just use, because it doesn't have a black and white universally applicable dictionary definition.

 

[Zytel]

Yes. I had one for years. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for home defense.

 

[JShirley]

Carbine can mean a short rifle, or a rifle firing a less powerful cartridge. A Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine fires a full-power cartridge, it's just shorter than the standard SMLE. An M1 carbine, on the other hand, fires a less powerful cartridge than the US military standard rifle cartridge of the time.

 

[CraigC]

...most 9mm carbines are available in 5.56x45mm, for only a few ounces more weight, and the exact same length.

And enough concussive muzzle blast to rupture your eardrums and disorient the shooter when fired in enclosed areas. Yeah, no thanks. A 16" 9mm will not be much louder than a .22Mag rifle. If any.

The FMJ will get the job done.

Try it. Even .45 hardball is dismal on flesh and the 9mm is worse. Anybody who has used FMJ on critters knows this. The 9mm is absolutely dependent on the performance of a good JHP to be effective.

 

[Warp]

And enough concussive muzzle blast to rupture your eardrums and disorient the shooter when fired in enclosed areas. Yeah, no thanks. A 16" 9mm will not be much louder than a .22Mag rifle. If any.

What makes you say/think this?

My (limited) experience differs.

 

[CraigC]

Uh, shooting a .223 indoors???

 

[Warp]

Uh, shooting a .223 indoors???

Whose eardrums ruptured? What kind of indoors was it, what specific firearm was being fired, and where was the person with ruptured eardrums relative to the firearm?

 

[briansmithwins]

Pistols and rifles are going to damage hearing if fired without hearing protection.

Even more indoors.

But, your brains aren't going to run out your ears or your eyeballs liquefy if you shoot a rifle indoors.

BSW

 

[CraigC]

Pistols and rifles are going to damage hearing if fired without hearing protection.

That is a given and should be obvious enough that it doesn't need mentioning. However, a high pressure rifle cartridge is much louder and will be much more likely to cause immediate permanent damage and it can disorient the shooter. Yes my number one priority is to survive the fight but if I can prevent serious permanent hearing damage I certainly will. You guys can act as if I'm stupid for being concerned with such things all you want. My AR is standing in a corner four feet away but if it came to a fight inside the house, I'd rather it had a .45ACP upper on it.

You have obviously decided that pistol cartridge carbines aren't good for anything but not everybody agrees with you.

 

[Warp]

That is a given and should be obvious enough that it doesn't need mentioning. However, a high pressure rifle cartridge is much louder and will be much more likely to cause immediate permanent damage and it can disorient the shooter. Yes my number one priority is to survive the fight but if I can prevent serious permanent hearing damage I certainly will. You guys can act as if I'm stupid for being concerned with such things all you want. My AR is standing in a corner four feet away but if it came to a fight inside the house, I'd rather it had a .45ACP upper on it.

You have obviously decided that pistol cartridge carbines aren't good for anything but not everybody agrees with you.

What is the basis for your claim that a rifle in 5.56 would rupture eardrums if fired indoors?

Nobody is acting like you are stupid for being concerned with hearing damage...but what is the basis for your claim that a rifle in 5.56 would rupture eardrums if fired indoors?

 

[Walkalong]

I have no clue if a .223 in a hallway inside would rupture an eardrum. I figure it probably won't, but I know for certain it will be painful.

I have posted numerous times that I would much rather shoot a larger bore "boomer" than a caliber with that has a high pitched "crack" to it.

You could not pay me to shoot a full pressure .32-20 round in a handgun or a .327 Federal indoors without hearing protection, but for the right money I might do it with a .45 ACP. I know exactly what that will do. The .32-20 without hearing protection is bad enough out in the open. I know exactly what that will do as well. I also know which one I would be better suited to remain in focus afterwards.

The discussion of what it will do to your hearing and focus is relevant when discussing self defense in general, but has nothing to do with this question, as it pertains to a 9MM carbine and nothing else.

The question is would you be comfortable using a 9MM carbine for self defense, not is the .223 better.

Yes, or no, I prefer something different, I think it is underpowered, or not dependable enough.

 

[JShirley]

And enough concussive muzzle blast to rupture your eardrums and disorient the shooter when fired in enclosed areas. Yeah, no thanks.

I fired a .270 inside, 25 years ago. No eardrums were ruptured. Also, other than the Oh, crap, I just shot the ceiling feeling, no actual disorientation happened, either.

I believe in wearing ear pro when shooting. Anything. But your statements regarding the sound and pressure effects of firing .223 inside are not consistent with my experiences.

John

 

[Warp]

I have stood next to a guy at an indoor range, in a very small area, completely surrounded by concrete (walls and floor anyway), who wore no hearing protection while somebody not more than maybe 8 feet away from us blasted away with his AR chambered in 5.56. His eardrums didn't rupture or anything of the sort.

All that happened was we looked at him like he was a dumbass, and he probably did some damage to his hearing that day, trying to be Mr Tough Guy.

I have also spoke with people who were right by 5.56 fired indoors in real use, and no eardrums were even close to being ruptured.

 

[Panzerschwein]

One could make the argument that if one had to fire on more than one threat indoors, transitioning would be easier with the 9mm carbine due to the decreased noise and muzzle blast vs. a 5.56 carbine. It's a valid point.

We all know the AR-15 is the only weapon at the gun shop actually worth defending yourself with (sarcasm ) so thanks everyone for not cutting this idea to pieces right off the bat. I think we all learned something about the general consensus regarding pistol caliber carbines as a defensive option. As for me, when I get my Beretta I won't have any reservations about keeping it loaded with a 30 round mag of +P JHPs, ya know... just in case.

 

[CraigC]

That settles it then, there is absolutely no difference between shooting a 9mm carbine and a .223 indoors. Because no one ever wrote a book describing how SPL's above 140db can rupture ear drums or cause vertigo or balance issues. Or 100db if only one ear is exposed. Because one time, at band camp, Warp did it and didn't bleed from his ears it's impossible for anyone under any conditions. Yep, uh huh.

They work, sorry.

 

[Warp]

That settles it then, there is absolutely no difference between shooting a 9mm carbine and a .223 indoors. Because no one ever wrote a book describing how SPL's above 140db can rupture ear drums or cause vertigo or balance issues. Or 100db if only one ear is exposed. Because one time, at band camp, Warp did it and didn't bleed from his ears it's impossible for anyone under any conditions. Yep, uh huh.

They work, sorry.

I asked you twice, above, what you based your statement/opinion about ruptured eardrums on, and your response was "Uh, shooting a .223 indoors???"

When asked about specifics regarding whose eardrum ruptured, where, how, etc, you declined to respond.

So...on what do you base your claim that it would rupture eardrums?

MODS: I realize this is more off topic. Would it be too troublesome to split these posts off into their own thread?

 

[Panzerschwein]

I don't think that would be necessary Warp. It's just discussing one aspect of using a 9mm carbine vs. a .223/5.56 carbine. I think we can all agree guns are loud, and even louder indoors.

 

[ugaarguy]

And enough concussive muzzle blast to rupture your eardrums and disorient the shooter when fired in enclosed areas. Yeah, no thanks. A 16" 9mm will not be much louder than a .22Mag rifle. If any.

NO. Perhaps you'd like to read some scientific data -http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml.

Because no one ever wrote a book describing how SPL's above 140db can rupture ear drums or cause vertigo or balance issues. Or 100db if only one ear is exposed.

Check the link above. None of the pistols, rifles, or shotguns tested produced less than 150dB. If you have data from a reputable source showing that commercial 9mm loads out of a 16" bbl produce less than 140dB I'd love to see it.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I think what he was trying to say is 9mm seems to be pretty quite when fired out of a rifle length barrel, perhaps even quieter than .223 or 5.56mm.

While trying to point out any flaws to the .223/5.56 AR system in regards to home defense is sacrilege I know (JK! ) perhaps this is one advantage the less powerful rifle has to the hammer of Thor known as the AR-15.

 

[AKElroy]

On the off hand, 1 in a million chance I am forced to use deadly force with a rifle in my home, I don't think I am going to give one seconds thought to my hearing.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Well good for you, I hope you never need to either. I haven't any reservations in entertaining the thought that a 9mm carbine would still be superior in target transition in low light and a confined space after firing on the first target, with my ears being no worse the wear and hopefully better than if I fired an AR.